Watts per channel, RMS... overrated?
- Thread starter hnash53
- Start date
hnash53
Super Member
Titanstats... I was asking about the necessity of huge numbers of watts when it is pretty clear that under typical/normal listening sessions, most watts go "unused." It was my HOPE that there would be some amp/receiver manufacturers that haven't bought into the wattage wars and made <50wpc amps/receivers and used quality audio components in the rest of the amp/receiver. From what I've read in response to my original post is that's not gonna happen.
And by the way, it's my understanding that the EPI 150s with the new woofs/tweets have a sensitivity of about 88dB. From my reading, that's middle-of-the-road in term of sensitivity. Sure, if money is no object, one can purchase 95+dB speakers. And I have a hunch that in a blind A/B test using my EPIs, many listeners would not be able to tell my 12 wpc Realistic from a (pick your mid-fi receiver) with lots more watts... unless of course one was to do the test at 110dB and above, which will damage one's hearing... in which case, I would gladly concede that the more powerful amp/receiver was "better" than mine.
I'm looking for quality audio at my typical listening levels... and wish I didn't have to pay for scores of unused watts just to get other mid-fi quality audio components... is that too much to ask? Apparently so....
And by the way, it's my understanding that the EPI 150s with the new woofs/tweets have a sensitivity of about 88dB. From my reading, that's middle-of-the-road in term of sensitivity. Sure, if money is no object, one can purchase 95+dB speakers. And I have a hunch that in a blind A/B test using my EPIs, many listeners would not be able to tell my 12 wpc Realistic from a (pick your mid-fi receiver) with lots more watts... unless of course one was to do the test at 110dB and above, which will damage one's hearing... in which case, I would gladly concede that the more powerful amp/receiver was "better" than mine.
I'm looking for quality audio at my typical listening levels... and wish I didn't have to pay for scores of unused watts just to get other mid-fi quality audio components... is that too much to ask? Apparently so....
charles 1973
Super Member
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You do. I have even smaller room. 300W per channel is barely sufficient. Speakers are B&W 802D - they work surprisingly well in that small room.
Billy Dio
Well-Known Member
Are the wattages actually variable? I was under the impression only the gain is actually adjusted with the volume pot, not the actual wattage output. That is, the unit always makes X amount of wattage, with the actual gain adjusted to compensate how "loud" it actually gets.
RMS wattage is what the unit will supposedly maintain on average after it's at operating temps and played for X amount of time with a sine wave signal run through it in testing. If anything, actual wattage ratings are only important when you are trying to match speakers with an amp, and you are shooting for specific volume levels. Put 20 "watt RMS" speakers to an amp that puts out a colorful 150 wpc and turn the volume up 1/4 way and watch what happens. If you purchase a 50 watt mono amp and want to power a 15" loudspeaker with 4 horn tweeters, and expect it'll be enough to give sound to everyone in a rock concert arena, you'll be sorely disappointed. Say you want REALLY good and loud bass for some subs in your car, and the amplifiers are actually rated correctly and 2006 compliant (not always the case as they aren't regulated like home stereos; the 2006 CEA stuff is voluntary AFAIK but helps level the playing field if their logo is on the box), you'd probably want 400-500w per sub in a small hatch with open cargo area, with 600-1000w in larger sedans with trunks. If you bought some junk JL Audio W0 10" sub, it'll literally get cooked and seize with 450w mono/bridged amp running to it, whereas an Alpine type R 10" sub can take the 450w in strides, all day every day. In those scenarios, wattage ratings are useful to help you select appropriate hardware, but they won't actually help you with how "good" each amp actually sounds. Class A/B amps typically sound better, but require gobs of power as they aren't overly efficient. Whereas a Class D amp makes the power easily, but the actual sound is rather flat.
Anyways, picking an "amp" purely on "wattage" rating is a mistake. To prove that point, go buy a new "100 wpc" stereo that costs $100, another 100 wpc model that costs $350, then go find something from 1977-1980 with the same wattage rating. Hook them up to an external speaker switch (obviously set everything to similar settings beforehand), and run some blind tests. I'll bet any amount of money the old unit will sound better hands-down given it's in good shape and was a decent unit to begin with given the fact it was designed with sound quality in mind, whereas the 2 other amps will sound pretty similar if not the same. Hell, I'd even be willing to put my little 33 watt 3233 against a "modern" run of the mill home stereo in the 100 wpc range and in a blind test the smaller amp will not only sound louder, it'll sound better (using the blind test above, I actually have a more modern $100 100 wpc and $350 100 wpc unit, and all the units in my sig are better sounding despite being run of the mill stuff from yesteryear). Ask any of these Marantz guys to put one of their 20-40w units against a modern stereo you get at Best Buy that makes 100-110 wpc and see which sounds better.
Unfortunately, the very best way to "judge" an amplifier is with your own ears. If you can't do it in person, you'll have to gamble. If older stuff typically gets warm reviews NOW, it's probably a safe bet assuming they aren't overly anal about something you could care less about. Be wary of newer stereos with online reviews. Many people that buy them it's the only thing they've heard, they just dropped $300 on it, so obviously it's going to sound "great". Let them listen to a proper amp from the 70's/80's with the same speakers and it'll be an eye opener for them. After my first vintage stereo died, I went and dropped $300+ on a unit, and was sorely disappointed it didn't sound as good as what I had been accustomed to.
RMS wattage is what the unit will supposedly maintain on average after it's at operating temps and played for X amount of time with a sine wave signal run through it in testing. If anything, actual wattage ratings are only important when you are trying to match speakers with an amp, and you are shooting for specific volume levels. Put 20 "watt RMS" speakers to an amp that puts out a colorful 150 wpc and turn the volume up 1/4 way and watch what happens. If you purchase a 50 watt mono amp and want to power a 15" loudspeaker with 4 horn tweeters, and expect it'll be enough to give sound to everyone in a rock concert arena, you'll be sorely disappointed. Say you want REALLY good and loud bass for some subs in your car, and the amplifiers are actually rated correctly and 2006 compliant (not always the case as they aren't regulated like home stereos; the 2006 CEA stuff is voluntary AFAIK but helps level the playing field if their logo is on the box), you'd probably want 400-500w per sub in a small hatch with open cargo area, with 600-1000w in larger sedans with trunks. If you bought some junk JL Audio W0 10" sub, it'll literally get cooked and seize with 450w mono/bridged amp running to it, whereas an Alpine type R 10" sub can take the 450w in strides, all day every day. In those scenarios, wattage ratings are useful to help you select appropriate hardware, but they won't actually help you with how "good" each amp actually sounds. Class A/B amps typically sound better, but require gobs of power as they aren't overly efficient. Whereas a Class D amp makes the power easily, but the actual sound is rather flat.
Anyways, picking an "amp" purely on "wattage" rating is a mistake. To prove that point, go buy a new "100 wpc" stereo that costs $100, another 100 wpc model that costs $350, then go find something from 1977-1980 with the same wattage rating. Hook them up to an external speaker switch (obviously set everything to similar settings beforehand), and run some blind tests. I'll bet any amount of money the old unit will sound better hands-down given it's in good shape and was a decent unit to begin with given the fact it was designed with sound quality in mind, whereas the 2 other amps will sound pretty similar if not the same. Hell, I'd even be willing to put my little 33 watt 3233 against a "modern" run of the mill home stereo in the 100 wpc range and in a blind test the smaller amp will not only sound louder, it'll sound better (using the blind test above, I actually have a more modern $100 100 wpc and $350 100 wpc unit, and all the units in my sig are better sounding despite being run of the mill stuff from yesteryear). Ask any of these Marantz guys to put one of their 20-40w units against a modern stereo you get at Best Buy that makes 100-110 wpc and see which sounds better.
Unfortunately, the very best way to "judge" an amplifier is with your own ears. If you can't do it in person, you'll have to gamble. If older stuff typically gets warm reviews NOW, it's probably a safe bet assuming they aren't overly anal about something you could care less about. Be wary of newer stereos with online reviews. Many people that buy them it's the only thing they've heard, they just dropped $300 on it, so obviously it's going to sound "great". Let them listen to a proper amp from the 70's/80's with the same speakers and it'll be an eye opener for them. After my first vintage stereo died, I went and dropped $300+ on a unit, and was sorely disappointed it didn't sound as good as what I had been accustomed to.
trhee
ㅇtㅈyㅅr
The amount of power you need depends on:
1. Choice of speakers.
2. Preferred listening levels.
3. Size of listening room.
4. Distance of listener to speakers.
5. Dynamic range of music.
Anything beyond the needs of the above five, is overrated.
Also, IMO, watts don't tell the whole story since a high current design is more important to me. I'd rather have a high current 50wpc design than one that delivers 100wpc but with less current. In that regard, wattage is overrated.
1. Choice of speakers.
2. Preferred listening levels.
3. Size of listening room.
4. Distance of listener to speakers.
5. Dynamic range of music.
Anything beyond the needs of the above five, is overrated.
Also, IMO, watts don't tell the whole story since a high current design is more important to me. I'd rather have a high current 50wpc design than one that delivers 100wpc but with less current. In that regard, wattage is overrated.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
The choice of speakers of course has a huge bearing on the power you need, with anything from 84dB SPL@1M to 96dB SPL@1M being a typical spread among vintage and modern speakers. That alone makes an enormous difference to the power needed.
So called high current designs are actually closer to the ideal Voltage Source where the rail voltage doesn't sag and the power delivered to the load isn't limited by, or dependant on, the impedance of the connected load.
The OP's observations are perfectly true for his particular combination, one where all the stars align for a system that satisfies his SPL requirements.
There will always be people chiming in about how much power they need and how much they have got stacked up in their little man caves, but at the end of the day, when electricity costs skyrocket, we'll all need efficient amplifiers and speakers, just like our cars have to meet certain fuel efficiency targets to be sold or registered, and you'll be still listening legally on a few watts while our massive transformer, big iron amps are piled up in the recycling centre- unable to be legally plugged into the grid due to their gross inefficiency.
Inspectors will come around and search your house for antique gear and forcibly remove it for recycling while we scream and yell at them with tears streaming down our faces.
We'll bury gear in underground chambers and hide stuff for prosperity, hoping some future alien visitors to the planet will realise how amazingly developed our audio equipment was.
In that apocalyptic world, I'll probably have to dig a subterranean listening room powered by a solar array and spin my silver and black discs illegally while everyone else runs around in Priuses and listens on their class D 99.999% efficient 5 watt amps running into super efficient fullranges.
I will be that crazy old guy living in a container somewhere in the devastated outlands, running a sly grog bar and playing tunes for gypsies and passers by on my gear.
So called high current designs are actually closer to the ideal Voltage Source where the rail voltage doesn't sag and the power delivered to the load isn't limited by, or dependant on, the impedance of the connected load.
The OP's observations are perfectly true for his particular combination, one where all the stars align for a system that satisfies his SPL requirements.
There will always be people chiming in about how much power they need and how much they have got stacked up in their little man caves, but at the end of the day, when electricity costs skyrocket, we'll all need efficient amplifiers and speakers, just like our cars have to meet certain fuel efficiency targets to be sold or registered, and you'll be still listening legally on a few watts while our massive transformer, big iron amps are piled up in the recycling centre- unable to be legally plugged into the grid due to their gross inefficiency.
Inspectors will come around and search your house for antique gear and forcibly remove it for recycling while we scream and yell at them with tears streaming down our faces.
We'll bury gear in underground chambers and hide stuff for prosperity, hoping some future alien visitors to the planet will realise how amazingly developed our audio equipment was.
In that apocalyptic world, I'll probably have to dig a subterranean listening room powered by a solar array and spin my silver and black discs illegally while everyone else runs around in Priuses and listens on their class D 99.999% efficient 5 watt amps running into super efficient fullranges.
I will be that crazy old guy living in a container somewhere in the devastated outlands, running a sly grog bar and playing tunes for gypsies and passers by on my gear.
50 watts on 15" drivers with four horns is going to be pretty damn loud most times...
Brian
An Old Geezer
Low power, higher quality:
Amps:
Marantz 1060
HK 501
Sherwood S9500, S9600
McIntosh MA230
McIntosh MA5100
Fisher TX100, TX300
Sony TA1130, TA1150
Receivers:
Marantz 18
Marantz 19
Sony STR6060
Sony STR6120
Sony STR6200
HK - pretty much all the x30 series
McIntosh 1500
McIntosh 1700
Philips - any of the Laboratory Series through 7x6, excluding 7x7 as it is 60 watts.
Sherwood SEL200
Fisher 500T, 500TX, 600T
Sherwood 7700, 8000 tube series, 7x00, 8x00 ss series
Scott 299, 399, 340, 340B
Tuner/Preamp with power amp:
Marantz 27 (or is it the 24 as I get them mixed up) with 15 power amp
Sony STC7000 with the TA3060 or TA3200
McIntosh - any of the MX series with the MC250 or MC2505
If you want to go separate preamp and power amp, we can add that combo as well. The list of power amps in your range is quite long.
This is not even the beginning of the beginning of the list. For many manufacturers, the sweet spot for sound quality was in the 40-60 watt range as the parts bins had more to work with in terms of components.
Amps:
Marantz 1060
HK 501
Sherwood S9500, S9600
McIntosh MA230
McIntosh MA5100
Fisher TX100, TX300
Sony TA1130, TA1150
Receivers:
Marantz 18
Marantz 19
Sony STR6060
Sony STR6120
Sony STR6200
HK - pretty much all the x30 series
McIntosh 1500
McIntosh 1700
Philips - any of the Laboratory Series through 7x6, excluding 7x7 as it is 60 watts.
Sherwood SEL200
Fisher 500T, 500TX, 600T
Sherwood 7700, 8000 tube series, 7x00, 8x00 ss series
Scott 299, 399, 340, 340B
Tuner/Preamp with power amp:
Marantz 27 (or is it the 24 as I get them mixed up) with 15 power amp
Sony STC7000 with the TA3060 or TA3200
McIntosh - any of the MX series with the MC250 or MC2505
If you want to go separate preamp and power amp, we can add that combo as well. The list of power amps in your range is quite long.
This is not even the beginning of the beginning of the list. For many manufacturers, the sweet spot for sound quality was in the 40-60 watt range as the parts bins had more to work with in terms of components.
charles 1973
Super Member
I agree with this. I have found that with most thing's audio, Including receivers, amps, and HT receivers that the mid-range of a quality line (not all brand lines are high quality) worked best for me. They offer the best combination of SQ, features, and price. It's like they say...You get what you pay for!
That said, Depending on our need, there is a place for lower end, but still good quality, and high end models. The key is to buy the product for your application. In my living room for example, where I want much better sound than my LED TV provides, but don't want a room full of speakers, sub's and components, I use a vintage 10 wpc Realistic receiver and matching Minimus 7 speakers. Thanks to an EQ built into the receiver, this tiny system meets my needs very well. It's really is surprising how much bass those palm size speakers can produce in a large, open concept room, at moderate SPL's. I often hit the mute button to determine if the low rumble I hear from a movie (I just watched "Waterworld") is from outside, or the movie.
Sometimes the higher end of a product line may have some features we are looking for that are worth the extra cost. It may not sound much different, except at 110 db's+, but the features can be very useful. Perhaps a really good Tuner for example for FM fans (at least when vintage receivers were popular).
Chris Brown
Super Member
I know that when I measure my amps using a kill-a-watt, power usage is clearly tied to volume. That would seem to indicate that wattage output is variable in at least some context, as otherwise I would expect power usage to be fairly consistent.
I don't really agree with this sentiment. Many come on here asking about this. "Overpowering" your speakers is really not something people should be concerned about, certainly not to the point of buying a lower-powered amp simply out of fear for your speakers. If you have other reasons to buy a lower-powered amp, then by all means do it, but don't do it just for that reason.
The bottom line is that overpowering your speakers is something that can generally only happen when negligence comes into play. Simply being careful with volume adjustments and listening for distortion from the speakers will be all you need in this situation, as the speakers will clearly begin to distort and sound bad before damage happens. If you crank it and burn up your speakers during a drunk party or something, that's still not the fault of the amplifier...
I'm already paying $.50/kWh and it hasn't slowed me down yet.
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What defines an amplifier as high current? Are you saying that an amp with a higher ratio of voltage to current produces "better" power? I would have thought that any amp capable of providing the power necessary to deliver a clean signal to a given load would be, inherently, a "high-current" amp?
restorer-john
Addicted Member
High Current was a buzz term used by HK and others in the 1980s to differentiate amps that actually had decent transformers (as compared to the high dynamic power designs of the day) and enough output devices to deliver reasonable power into load impedances under the usual 8ohms.
It's simple: a power supply that doesn't droop under all reasonable loads and an output stage that can deliver the full capability of the power supply without self destructing = a high current amp. I call it a well designed amp.
It's simple: a power supply that doesn't droop under all reasonable loads and an output stage that can deliver the full capability of the power supply without self destructing = a high current amp. I call it a well designed amp.
Generally double the power each time when load impedance is halved. Down to 2 or even 1 ohm.
If that is the definition of a high-current amp, I would say that there are not more than a handful of them out there.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Except it can't work that way at any given load....
E=I*R and all that.
In the example given to which you replied, it's impossible for an amp to deliver 100W at less current than a 50W amp into the same load.
True dat. I was just interested in finding out how that contributor would answer the questions I posed as regards the mystical "high-current" amp.
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There are indeed not many really high current amps.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
You'd be surprised, Accuphase amplifiers are all designed to be able to sink the entire power supply, and their power supplies are massive.
There's plenty of hifi amps that specify the theoretical doubling down into half impedances, but they all under spec the 8 and 4 ohm ratings and work back from the 2 ohm continuous to give the 'illusion' of an 'ideal' amp. Audiophiles swallow it hook line and sinker.
Pro amps however are the true beasts in that area, especially the smart SMPS
driven ones where they can double down to virtually a short circuit with some very clever control circuitry and rows of output devices.
There's plenty of hifi amps that specify the theoretical doubling down into half impedances, but they all under spec the 8 and 4 ohm ratings and work back from the 2 ohm continuous to give the 'illusion' of an 'ideal' amp. Audiophiles swallow it hook line and sinker.
Pro amps however are the true beasts in that area, especially the smart SMPS
driven ones where they can double down to virtually a short circuit with some very clever control circuitry and rows of output devices.
Wattage is one measure, instantaneous Current capabilty is another
Quality amps of lowish wattage can and do deliver well upwards of 20 amps when the music signal calls for it. Mediocre amps don't even list that in their specs.. but their wattage info is front and centre.
Headroom is the name of the game.
Frankly if using Realistick and EPI .. it isn't of concern.. imo.
In the same vein as the current discussion...I have trouble understanding how an amplifier that can deliver 20 amps could be considered a "lowish wattage" unit. In fact, I would categorize it as a high power amp.
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