Which BTW was a available with a V-8
and some of them were available with Levi's interiors
Went to a Kia dealer about a new hybrid car
- Thread starter sanford12
- Start date
and some of them were available with Levi's interiors
David_NC
Super Member
Unrelated to the thread but still funny... a few years ago, I was in Venice (California), and a couple was riding recumbent bikes on the boardwalk area. As usual, it was pretty crowded. The man began fanning his hand in front of his face saying things were stinky (his words) with a squinched up face. I thought it was pretty strange somebody would be butt-level in a crowd and be seemingly surprised at smelling something stinky....
Not a biggie. Sometimes it's nice when a thread meanders
They found pretty quickly the copper rivets were a bad idea
David_NC
Super Member
Most Subaru Outbacks are hatchbacks, or they have been in the past. SUV's are more desirable than cars in the market these days, so that's no surprise. My old '04 Forester was considered a truck at one point, despite being built on the Impreza chassis. Now it's considered a compact crossover SUV. I'd consider it a hatchback or wagon.Why would you call a wagon a 5-door sedan? It is not a sedan. There is a Legacy sedan. Hmm, does not look that bad. In classic Subaru tradition, it iterates the generations between bland and ugly. This one is bland, which is a compliment in the time where most cars are ugly.
Here is an emission sticker for a 2015 Outback:
According to EPA definitions, "LDV" means light-duty vehicle, "LDT2" means light-duty truck 2. The current emissions regulation specifies that trucks can pollute more than non-trucks.
As for fuel economy, I believe the target numbers are linked to vehicle type and weight. Actually, I think it is footprint nowadays, which is why all vehicles are larger than ever, not only long but wide. Quoting The Effect of Fuel Economy Standards on Vehicle Weight Dispersion and Accident Fatalities (bold is mine):
Obviously, instead of converting only large cars to trucks they can drop all cars altogether, large and small, which they did.
There is no money in building small economy cars, because they are not fuel-efficient enough to offset fuel economy penalties, not safe enough, they need as much tech as bigger cars, the margins are very low. No wonder that cheap (and small) cars are gone.
Compared to domestic trucks and cars, Asian brands still seem to do OK with small cars. I see plenty of new Corolla, C-HR, Civic, HR-V, Mazda 3s, Sentra, Versa, and Kicks, Rio, and Forte models, plus all the smaller hybrid and electric models. I think it's more accurate to say that the Big 3 decided that it wasn't profitable to build small cars, which has never been their strong point, in my opinion.
Last edited:
I'm so blessed to have a guardian angel.
Late Boomer
Super Member
It is more important what EPA considers it. AFAIK, ground clearance has been one of the criteria - 8 inches or more would designate a truck, well, a vehicle capable of driving off road, which is why everyone has been striving to reach this magic number (actually, 20 cm).
David_NC
Super Member
What are you disagreeing with? I'm not talking about 35 years ago; I'm talking about in the past decade or so, and in the past couple years in particular. What small cars do the Big 3 have in production? I remember the SHO, and it wasn't a small car. It was an excellent engine mated to a so-so car. Performance-wise, it was good, but that's about it. Still, it was a turning point for the domestic car companies.
This is nothing new; for fun, think back to the NUMMI joint venture between Toyota and GM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
At about the same time, GM was struggling to profitably build high-quality and fuel-efficient small cars that consumers demanded after the energy crisis of the 1970s. Consumers started turning to foreign automakers for these vehicles, prompting the U.S. Congress to consider import restrictions to protect the domestic auto industry.[7][8] That led GM and Toyota to team up and create New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc. (NUMMI), a joint venture to manufacture vehicles to be sold under both brand
GM saw the joint venture as a way to get access to quality small cars[8] and an opportunity to learn about the Toyota Production System and The Toyota Way, a series of lean manufacturing and management philosophies that had made the company a leader in the automotive manufacturing and production industry.[11] For Toyota, the factory gave the company its first manufacturing base in North America allowing it to avoid tariffs on imported vehicles[12] and saw GM as a partner that could show them how to navigate the American labor environment, particularly relations with the United Auto Workers union.
and
Toyota took the lessons it learned from NUMMI and went onto establish the wholly-owned Toyota Motor Manufacturing USA (later renamed Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky) and Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada plants in 1986, and by 2009 the company was operating a dozen manufacturing facilities in North America.[20] However, NUMMI remained Toyota's only unionized plant in the U.S.
GM executives, particularly CEO Jack Smith, attempted to spread the Toyota Production System to other assembly plants,[22][23][2] but it proved largely unsuccessful. Despite having a front row seat to learn about the production system, by 1998 (15 years later) GM had still not been able to implement lean manufacturing in the rest of the United States,[8][24] though GM managers trained at NUMMI were successful in introducing the approach to its unionized factories in Brazil.
GM saw the joint venture as a way to get access to quality small cars[8] and an opportunity to learn about the Toyota Production System and The Toyota Way, a series of lean manufacturing and management philosophies that had made the company a leader in the automotive manufacturing and production industry.[11] For Toyota, the factory gave the company its first manufacturing base in North America allowing it to avoid tariffs on imported vehicles[12] and saw GM as a partner that could show them how to navigate the American labor environment, particularly relations with the United Auto Workers union.
and
Toyota took the lessons it learned from NUMMI and went onto establish the wholly-owned Toyota Motor Manufacturing USA (later renamed Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky) and Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada plants in 1986, and by 2009 the company was operating a dozen manufacturing facilities in North America.[20] However, NUMMI remained Toyota's only unionized plant in the U.S.
GM executives, particularly CEO Jack Smith, attempted to spread the Toyota Production System to other assembly plants,[22][23][2] but it proved largely unsuccessful. Despite having a front row seat to learn about the production system, by 1998 (15 years later) GM had still not been able to implement lean manufacturing in the rest of the United States,[8][24] though GM managers trained at NUMMI were successful in introducing the approach to its unionized factories in Brazil.
David_NC
Super Member
It sounds very confusing: https://www.epa.gov/moves/how-does-moves-classify-light-duty-trucks
It is difficult to determine whether a vehicle is a passenger car, light duty truck or heavy duty truck just based on the make/model description.
Many SUVs and minivans are considered light duty trucks. Since vehicle manufacturers, and not EPA, determines the GVWR for vehicles and their other characteristics that determine the car/truck classification, EPA has not compiled a list of make/models by model year that classify vehicles.
Many SUVs and minivans are considered light duty trucks. Since vehicle manufacturers, and not EPA, determines the GVWR for vehicles and their other characteristics that determine the car/truck classification, EPA has not compiled a list of make/models by model year that classify vehicles.
David_NC
Super Member
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Even Toyota Avalon sales are higher than anything you mentioned, other than the Focus, and Camry sales are higher than every one of the ones listed combined. All numbers below are from www.goodcarbadcar.net
Take the Chevy SS. Still, that's a niche vehicle, and the sales numbers back that up:
Next, let's look at the MKS
Now, the CTS:
The Focus is the only one with really decent sales:
Now, let's look at a Corolla:
Late Boomer
Super Member
This is a funny one. Could be a good segway to factories in South Korea.
@David_NC I wasn’t referring to high sales volumes but simple good vehicles that were made.
at this point it’s marketing and track record. The Subaru Outback wagon is a top seller. Yet GM killed tour x for slow sales. The tour x will run circles around an outback other than off-road height clearance which most outbscks will never see. Buick is still an old persons car marque. If Buick ran ads about the outdoors and caring about animals and making donations based on sales they too would have sold well. If GM had cracked the under 50yr old LGBQT market subaru would be a sub Asian marquee.
both Outback and tour x are well made vehicles. Albeit underpowered in the outback. Both with proper maintenance would easily go 10yrs/150k mi
at this point it’s marketing and track record. The Subaru Outback wagon is a top seller. Yet GM killed tour x for slow sales. The tour x will run circles around an outback other than off-road height clearance which most outbscks will never see. Buick is still an old persons car marque. If Buick ran ads about the outdoors and caring about animals and making donations based on sales they too would have sold well. If GM had cracked the under 50yr old LGBQT market subaru would be a sub Asian marquee.
both Outback and tour x are well made vehicles. Albeit underpowered in the outback. Both with proper maintenance would easily go 10yrs/150k mi
David_NC
Super Member
There's those pesky things called reliability and reputation. Honestly, if GM make good cars that people wanted for comparable prices, they'd sell. There's lots wrong with GM and corporate America that borderline on political, so we can't go there, but that has a good bit to do with it.
Ford is the anomaly; their Focus and Fusion models sold really well, as in almost Toyota well, yet they killed them... but the Asian manufacturers still see profit from passenger cars. It's just odd to me that GM and Chrysler couldn't do the same, and Ford stopped.
As for marketing, the domestics have it all over the Asian companies; they sell big trucks to one family member, so why not use that to market their cars to the rest of the family? They lost the 'made in USA' edge when previously imported cars started being made here. Honestly, I think that the margins are typically too slim for the Big 3 to make good, nice, inexpensive cars while the Asian manufacturers are able to do this (back to the corporate thing). It's sad / odd that the domestic manufacturers can't at least follow the marketing strategy of successful ad campaigns that work well for others; it seems like it'd be a no-brainer, but I think their issues run deeper than simply marketing.
I currently have vehicles made in three continents, and I can say the one from the company based in the US has the lowest quality and the highest maintenance, which mirrors my previous experiences.
Shadowdog
Super Member
He used Mobil 1 synthetic and changed it @ Ford's recommendations if I remember right and lived in Alabama so no really cold weather.
Shadowdog
Super Member
Ford does still make an ICE car, the Mustang and I thought they could make a nice 4 door off that chassis with a different name that would sell well. GM's also still has the Camaro and Vette besides the mentioned Malibu. Dodge also has the Challenger besides the Charger and both can be had with a powerful V6 and AWD besides the Hemi V8's.
Late Boomer
Super Member
These Buicks were in fact Opels. After Opel was sold to Peugeot, its models were killed. I looked at TourX, it could be had for less than $30K, I did not like the idiotic black "all-road" trim. You are right, GM did not know how to advertise these cars, and probably did not care. They wanted to kill them in favor of crossovers.
Just what I've always wanted my very own AK troll. Bless your heart.
I wasn't talking about you , but thanks.