Wharfedale W70 (and similar) Experience

[CrawfishKing]

Hi guys,

I've been running Wharfedale W70's since mid February and it's been quite the journey. It was a pretty radical shift looking back on it from my upgraded Klipsch Tangent 200's using powerful horn presence to the lush, accurate W70. There was certainly a bit of a learning curve in adjusting my ears and mindset. To boot, within a couple weeks of getting them I moved, going from a 18' x 12' room to 12.5 x 11.5.

Long story short it took a lot to get used to the speakers and room and place them properly. I've had to move into an extremely near field (4 ft triangle) to get the most out of them, ears between tweeters and mids. I'm using the room lengthwise and they are about 3 ft off the side walls and 3.5ft off the back wall. I have 8 4x2ft panels I built for acoustic treatment in the mix as well.

I'm wondering how others have set these and other similar W series Wharfies' up, what amps you're using, etc. Do others find there is really only one way they sound good or is that a limitation of my small room with these huge speakers?

Thanks to anyone who wants to chime in, I'll post some pictures tomorrow

Matt

 

[Gang-Twanger]

What I found, with either W60's or W90's (Don't have W70's), is that attention to distancing is important. I measure from both sides of the baffle to the centerpoint of my listening spot.. My W90's are roughly 8ft from my listening spot and maybe 5.5ft to 6ft from each other. Pretty-close to the golden ratio, and the W90's are pretty-content with the distance. Definitely the best I've gotten from them so far. They have oil caps in them, and I'm powering them with 30wpc of Fisher 800C-ness. It's got Westinghouse 7591's and RCA 12ax7's, basically a focus on "warm and vibey".

 

[RS Steve]

I didn't like my W-70's running behind a SS amp, but paired with any of my Fisher tube equipment they produce about as good a midrange sound I have heard. They are placement sensitive also, I like mine about 10 feet apart and tilted up around 6 degrees.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

My room is like 14' x 14', or maybe 14'x12'. Originally, I had them out quite-far into the room, as this is a square room with a doorway in the center, directly-behind the speakers, plus there's a lowered crossbeam that sits about 8" BELOW the ceiling (Not the most-optimum room for acoustics, I figured), but I ultimately moved them back quite a bit, and now they're maybe 2-3ft from the back wall. MUCH better. Now they're REALLY-singing. Those W12's don't mind a little distance apparently, and the doorway in back didn't pose quite as much of a threat as I had anticipated, which I think is thanks to the sand-filled rear panels.

Every room is different, and I'm no expert on acoustics, but these sand-filled models can go right up against the back wall if need be, so put some space between you and those W70's if you can. I have to think that will really help a lot. It's important to have both speakers equal distance from the centerpoint of your listening spot (Between your knees, basically... That's the point to measure from, and make sure you measure from BOTH sides of the speaker baffles, which are very-wide, and one side being closer to you than the other means that the speaker is not pointing directly at you... I found my Wharfedales in this room sound best aiming right at me, so I toe them in to accommodate... Other rooms might do better with them pointing straight out, but I think that would require more distance... Maybe not).

Vintage Wharfedales are capable of a very-holographic midrange, as someone recently put it, and precise measuring is the key. These early '60's models like mine are quite-accurate for a pair of speakers from the tube era. The designers didn't have the aid of computers at the time, so there was lots of trial & error and voicing by ear. Those guys were pretty-smart though. Gilbert Briggs had been working with a young Raymond Cooke all the way back in 1953. Cooke originally had been Briggs' technical editor on a few audio/hi-fi books he was working on, and Briggs would later offer him the job of Technical Director in the mid '50's. Prior to that, I think Gilbert was the doing much/most of the design work himself. He was a supergenius himself, but Cooke was a MATH supergenius who worked as a radio operator in the Royal Navy, and he had an acute intuition about audio and acoustics, and Gilbert, who was in his mid '60's at the time, had made his bones in the textile industry for twenty years before starting his loudspeaker company in 1932 without any relative experience in the field, although he too had an acute intuition about as yet unproven aspects of audio and acoustics, so the two were quite a fierce combination in the industry, which had some VERY-tough competition.

The Super 3 tweeter was actually introduced PRIOR to Cooke's arrival, and it had quite an impact on the loudspeaker world. Their TOTL tweeter prior to that was the large-chassis Super 5, and the Super 3 was definitely an upgrade, especially in terms of refinement (The Super 5 can be used as a midwoofer, for pete's sake... Also, the Super 3 was a VERY-high flux design, with a 4lb magnet structure... It immediately replaced the 5 as the TOTL high-frequency driver). The Super 3 was reported to have a sound comparable to a ribbon tweeter. It really works best at ear-level, but it is a very, very-nice, very-underrated driver. I wouldn't choose anything for albums like "Let It Bleed", "Deja Vu", "Cosmo's Factory", or the White Album. Wharfedales from the early to mid '60's rule that stuff.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

I didn't like my W-70's running behind a SS amp, but paired with any of my Fisher tube equipment they produce about as good a midrange sound I have heard. They are placement sensitive also, I like mine about 10 feet apart and tilted up around 6 degrees.

Wow, that's pretty-far apart, although Wharfedales handle it quite-well, having a wide soundstage. You must have them pretty-far back from you. I moved mine closer to each other, and I pushed them farther back towards the back wall, so as to accommodate the usual golden ratio placement, and that really-helped in my situation, although, like I said before, my room is not ideal, which is why I had them so far out into the room. The biggest mistake I ever made with my system was assuming I know everything.

My W90's sound fantastic now. Clearer, tighter, more-focused, and better bass response. It's amazing that I've been able to get such good sound out of such a crappy room, although I do have them on 10" stands. The height helps, especially if you have obstacles in the room that block the dispersion. It also helps having the tweeters at eye-level, as this will eliminate the directionality issues (One of the reasons Wharfedale had so many omni-directional models in the '50's was because Gilbert Briggs felt very-strongly about fighting directionality problems... This is why the Super 3 tweeter works so well facing upwards, but as long as the tweeter is at ear-level, it wasn't a problem, not for me at least).

And I agree about Fisher tube gear too. Tubes in general, actually. And they like QUALITY tube gear, the higher the quality, the better. Wharfedales are capable of serious depth for a speaker that rolls off at 14khz (That's still better than the horn designs from that period, if I'm not mistaken... I would love to see a comparison between the original W70 and the Altec Valencia or perhaps a similar-sized Altec model from the early '60's, as the Valencia came out a little later... I think the W70 would put up some stiff competition).

 

[sempai]

If you have the older style W70's you might be interested in a pair of original stands.
They're very difficult to come by.
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649227344-factory-original-wharfedale-w70-speaker-stands/

No affiliation.

Art

 

[sempai]

And I agree about Fisher tube gear too. Tubes in general, actually. And they like QUALITY tube gear, the higher the quality, the better. Wharfedales are capable of serious depth for a speaker that rolls off at 14khz (That's still better than the horn designs from that period, if I'm not mistaken... I would love to see a comparison between the original W70 and the Altec Valencia or perhaps a similar-sized Altec model from the early '60's, as the Valencia came out a little later... I think the W70 would put up some stiff competition).

Some budget amplification options for the W70's that rival expensive QUALITY tube gear and PERFORM WAY BEYOND what their modest cost might suggest:

Akai M8 monoblocks scavanged from dead R to R's.
Superb sounding budget amps that sound really really nice.
I have a pair and they're not going anywhere.

TPA 3116 amp.
These are ridiculously good and can be had for less than a night out drinking beer with your buddies.

I've used both of these with my Wharfedales and they stand up to comparison with much more expensive amps.

I have W70d's, Rosedales and Altec Model 14's.
None of these are the early models that you would like to compare but I think you're wanting to compare apples and oranges.
Different horses for different courses.
Etcetera...


Art

edit: Hope the tone of this post doesn't come across as argumentative, but I'm trying to quit smoking.

 

[CrawfishKing]

Disclaimer, I am merely comparing differences in experience not saying my way is any more correct.

Gang, I have had very similar experiences except in relation to staying off the wall. For me the minimum distance of the back wall has been 3 ft. After getting any closer than that, the holographic 3 dimensionality disappears pretty quick. I have also noticed a significant pressure increase on my ears. I had 2 separate friends over who also noticed this without me saying anything. It was so pronounced for them that it was actually uncomfortable on their ears. The tweeter history is new and interesting to me so thanks for the contributions.

Steve, I tend to agree with Gang, that is abnormally far apart. Quite reminiscent of how I ran my Klipsch. How far are you from them? What is your listening level? How big of a room are you in?

Art,

Those stands are beautiful. If I didn't keep my speakers much higher I'd be all over them. As it is I'm still tempted for the rarity... we'll see if I can restrain myself... You're right in assuming I'm looking for differences and similarities, the budget amp info is very welcome!

The Altec Model 14 is a speaker I would love to hear. As much as I love the Wharfedales, I've never put horns behind me. Would you mind comparing them to your Wharfedales?

Ps: Your tone isn't argumentative at all, good luck with quitting the smoking!

A couple more variables for everyone:

What is your listening level?
For me it used to be around 78-85dB, With the Whafedales its dropped to 60-70, occasionally 50dB. It is mesmerizing to have things resolve at low levels.

What EQ setting do you use (both amp/ dials on speakers)
I keep the tweeter pot nearly maxed out and my amps bass controls have a +2.5 boost.

Heres some pictures...

Matt

 

[CrawfishKing]

on a side note does anyone know why I can't find this thread unless I search it manually? How did you guys even find it?

 

[RS Steve]

Disclaimer, I am merely comparing differences in experience not saying my way is any more correct.



Steve, I tend to agree with Gang, that is abnormally far apart. Quite reminiscent of how I ran my Klipsch. How far are you from them? What is your listening level? How big of a room are you in?

Matt

My room is about 12 feet wide by 11 feet deep, I had them angled in slightly, tilted about 6 degrees up, and my listening seat about 6 or 7 feet away from them. They were more like 8 feet apart now that I measured.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

That's how far my W90's USED to be from me (6-7ft), but I have since moved them farther back towards the rear wall, like I said. Getting mine out of the corners a bit more definitely helped make my W90's sound flatter. The room was affecting the response big-time. Anyway, mine are about 8ft from me, 2-3 feet from the back wall, and maybe 5.5 to 6 feet from each other. I need to keep working on the room. I've seen some big improvements, and I know I could see a lot more with the right treatments/placement. I'm still a novice about this stuff though.

That said, based on what I have read as well as my own experience, you want the longer distance to be between you and the speakers, not the distance BETWEEN the speakers (That should be the shorter distance in a golden ratio situation, which equates roughly to this: If your speakers are like 10ft away from you, they should be about 7-7.5ft away from each other, give or take... I can't remember the exact ratio, but look up "golden ratio speaker placement", and you should find it... It might be 6.5-7.5 feet on the width from each other for 10ft of length from you).

 

[sberger]

Matt you have yours pretty high off the ground. I just got a pair this morning am playing around with placement. My 20 x 20 room is awkward for placement because it's the living room and I can't bring them too far out into the room without my wife not being real happy. She's so understanding of this hobby of mine that I can't push the common room arrangement more than I do. Right now I have them on stands, about 11 inches off the floor, about 7.5 feet apart and about 10 feet from listening spot. That works out to about 2 feet off the back wall, and 2-2.5 feet off the side walls. About the best I can do.

The previous owner "updated" the speaker terminals, and removed the tone controls. Pisses me off, but I got them locally for $100, so all in all not a bad deal.

Haven't opened them up, but will soon. Hopefully the updates ended on the outside(although wouldn't mind if a recap took place...)

 

[sberger]

Oh, and using a Fisher 500B to push them.

 

[CrawfishKing]

sberger,

Congrats on the W70's they are a great speaker, that is a superb deal, and with the Fisher they should really sing. How are your first impressions?

A couple points to start with, The loss of the tweeter control on the back is unfortunate, but it's really a very simple design if you wanted to drop a new one in. I would say it's worth restoring as the tweeters are very easy to blow and I would want that control over them. Be very careful not to blow them even when you have that control back if you go that route, I can't stress enough how delicate they are. Also while you're in there make sure the previous owner didn't replace the paper in oil capacitors with something other than a paper in oil. I've never heard them with a standard poly/film cap but most will agree that a big part of the special sound in these comes from that cap. If you have to do a recap, source out the PIO, they are a little more expensive but still peanuts in the long run.

Aside from originality, the terminals are not a loss at all. They were an odd banana plug that was slightly smaller. I was told by another forum member Wharfedale designed it before banana plugs took off and it never took off because they did. Problem is either you can leave them and use bare wire which often falls out (I use blue sticky tack to keep them in place) or you have to replace them. So I wouldn't be too upset about the terminals, I'd be happier with banana plugs than the plastic ones on there though. If it was me, I'd just swap them to bananas while you're in there.

Also note what the drivers are like in there. Mine for instance have red tape on the magnet of the mids, and none on the tweeter or woofer. This signifies the mid is an alnico magnet. Only the early models used all alnicos.

Goodluck with your trophy!

Matt

 

[sberger]

Well I opened them up and got a pretty big surprise. Looks like the modification didn't stop on the outside. The tweeters are not Wharfe's(big disappointment) but rather Polydax from France. In the short amount of time that I've had to research seems they are considered to be of good quality, but they ain't the real deal. The woofers are not alnico, and I don't even know if they're original. The caps have been replaced with what looks like polys, but I can't make out the brand. The cabs were stuffed with pink fill. I've since taken it out completely.

So, bummer time. That said, they sound fine and if I'd never opened them up I'd never known that they're not the real deal. They cost me $100, so not really a rip off. The cabs and grills are original, but I really wanted everything else to be too. Oh well, live and learn. Next time ask the seller to open them up.

Here's what the inside look like on both of them:

 

[CrawfishKing]

Really sorry to hear that, but it seems you have the right mindset. For $100 they are worth it for those sand filled cabs. Your picture doesn't show the midrange driver, it kinda looks like it may have just had its port filled? The mids and tweets are both very special, so if they are still there thats good. The caps aren't PIO, but without the tweeters it doesn't matter, polys are actually better. The mid and woofer were both wired in full range, only the tweeter used the cap as a crossover.

Matt

 

[sberger]

They sound really nice. Wonder if I should ask for a refund or just keep them and enjoy them for what they are?

 

[phatster]

You can always keep a look out for the original speakers on one of those auction sites.I have seen several W70's parted out over the last year.Keep the faith.

 

[sberger]

I'm not a project kind of guy. I'll either hang on to these as is, or sell them for what they are, and look for another pair of "real" 70's. In the meantime, I'll enjoy these and my other speakers.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

Whoa.... What the hell? ... Did the guy say ANYTHING about changes/"updates"? Or was he just selling them as legit W70's? I don't recognize the woofer, but it looks REAL old. I get kind of a "really-old Goodmans woofer" vibe from it, but I'm probably just reaching. Man, really-sorry to hear that. Was the seller an AK'er? Honestly, the updated speaker terminals alone should have been reason enough to look inside before putting them up for sale.

How old would you say the Polydax is? And what happened to the midwoofer? He plugged the hole and made them 2-ways, huh?