What’s the big deal?

[GordonW]

a flat plate of MDF with a round flat plate of more that spins I'm not surprised will resonate with the speakers.

Which is the modern belt drive turntable that hangs the motor from rubber bands for isolation? Is that one of the Pro-Ject models?

Rega. Loved their tonearms- thought the rest of the turntables were pretty disposable.

I think Pro-Ject also did that on a few models.

IMHO, if you want the really good gear that Pro-Ject makes- buy a Music Hall. Better performance for the money, IMHO. The mmf5.3 is $1199, and a lot of $10K turntables DON'T sound as good.

For cheaper models- it's still hard to beat a Denon DP300F. For just over $400, you get a automatic start and stop, a good arm, good suspension and a removable headshell. Drop a better cartridge on it (many people use the Ortofon 2M Red or 2M Blue), and it will sound as good as anything short of the mmf5.3, IME.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[jrtrent]

When I bought my Technics turntable in 1980, it was $400. That equates to $1,400 today. A comparable new Technics today sells for $1,300.

If you run those same inflation numbers backward, a lot of today's entry level turntables would have sold for around $100 back then which would have bought you a very cheap, plastic turntable.

Inflation calculators are fun. Here are some numbers from 2010 and today. I chose 2010 because in that year Michael Trei reviewed the Rega P1 ($395), Music Hall MMF-2.2 ($449), and the Technics SL-1200MK2 ($699). All were in production at that time. Trei wrote, "Technics' bold-sounding SL-1200MK2 is built to last a lifetime of nightclub abuse, and while it can still perform well in a domestic environment, I found that its simpler belt-drive competitors were able to extract just a little extra musical enjoyment from those grooves." https://www.cnet.com/tech/home-entertainment/three-groovy-sounding-turntables/

Current prices for the models those older turntables have progressed into are:

Rega Planar 1, $595 (a 50.3% increase)
Music Hall MMF-2.3, $599 (a 33.4% increase)
Technics SL-1200MK7, $1099.95 (a 57.4% increase)

Both the Rega and the Technics are a little higher than an inflation calculator would put them ($557 and $986.27, respectively), but not outrageously so. Only the Music Hall is a bit of an inflation beater, as it comes in a bit lower than the calculated $633.53.

 

[trinhsman]

Rega. Loved their tonearms- thought the rest of the turntables were pretty disposable.

I think Pro-Ject also did that on a few models.

IMHO, if you want the really good gear that Pro-Ject makes- buy a Music Hall. Better performance for the money, IMHO. The mmf5.3 is $1199, and a lot of $10K turntables DON'T sound as good.

For cheaper models- it's still hard to beat a Denon DP300F. For just over $400, you get a automatic start and stop, a good arm, good suspension and a removable headshell. Drop a better cartridge on it (many people use the Ortofon 2M Red or 2M Blue), and it will sound as good as anything short of the mmf5.3, IME.

Regards,
Gordon.

Very very true. I have a Music Hall 9.1 with the upgraded 9.3 motor. I’ve used it with Ortofon 2M Black and now the SoundSmith Aida cartridge.
Music Hall makes a very decent table for the money spent.

 

[jrtrent]

For cheaper models- it's still hard to beat a Denon DP300F. For just over $400, you get a automatic start and stop, a good arm, good suspension and a removable headshell. Drop a better cartridge on it (many people use the Ortofon 2M Red or 2M Blue), and it will sound as good as anything short of the mmf5.3, IME.

I bought a DP-300F and enjoyed it for several years. It worked well with the stock cartridge (similar to an AT91R), a Grado Green1, and a Shure M97xE. My sample of the turntable, though, broke up some when trying to track a Sumiko Oyster, a cartridge my dealer was quite enamored with. Best guess was that the Denon's tone arm bearings just weren't quite up to the task of handling the energy the Oyster sent up the arm. Surprisingly, an AT-LP120XUSB that I had bought for the 78 rpm feature handled the Oyster quite well, the Oyster proving on that turntable to be noticeably better than the stock VM95. That was just as well, though, because AT makes a 78 rpm stylus for the VM95, so it went on an extra headshell to play 78's. I gave away the DP-300F, having limited space and a greater need for 78 rpm capability at that time than automatic play.

 

[GordonW]

I bought a DP-300F and enjoyed it for several years. It worked well with the stock cartridge (similar to an AT91R), a Grado Green1, and a Shure M97xE. My sample of the turntable, though, broke up some when trying to track a Sumiko Oyster, a cartridge my dealer was quite enamored with. Best guess was that the Denon's tone arm bearings just weren't quite up to the task of handling the energy the Oyster sent up the arm. Surprisingly, an AT-LP120XUSB that I had bought for the 78 rpm feature handled the Oyster quite well, the Oyster proving on that turntable to be noticeably better than the stock VM95. That was just as well, though, because AT makes a 78 rpm stylus for the VM95, so it went on an extra headshell to play 78's. I gave away the DP-300F, having limited space and a greater need for 78 rpm capability at that time than automatic play.

Sounds like the tonearm mass of the AT-LP120 was just better matched to that Oyster.

BTW- I've also had Oysters not track well. They are somewhat tonearm-dependent. Unlike the Ortofon 2M series, that will basically track on anything reasonable.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[jrtrent]

Sounds like the tonearm mass of the AT-LP120 was just better matched to that Oyster.

BTW- I've also had Oysters not track well. They are somewhat tonearm-dependent. Unlike the Ortofon 2M series, that will basically track on anything reasonable.

It's a shame that some manufacturers aren't more forthcoming about basics like effective mass. I don't know what the DP-300's is since it is not in the manual. AT's wasn't either, but they replied to an e-mail to let me know that it is 20.6 grams (including headshell). The only other arms I've used an Oyster with have been a Linn Ittok and the RB303 on a Rega. Both of these are supposed to be 11.5 grams, and the Oyster worked well on both of them.

 

[Gigantic]

my re-entry to vinyls was a little over a year ago, I picked up a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon for about $150, used, with an Ortofon Red cart. I hated that cartridge, but after upgrading it to a 2M Blue, I found that I really liked the SQ. I upgraded the platter to an acrylic version and as far as sound quality goes, it's hard to beat for the money. I'm in the process of making a solid mahogany plinth for it and after that's complete, it ought to be really quite nice.

That said, I grew weary of racing to queue up the tonearm after a side was done and I've recently purchased a Denon DP-37F, direct drive, automatic deck, as my last turntable nearly 20 years ago, was a Denon DP-52F and I've fond memories of it. I do appreciate the convenience of it, as well as the ability to quickly change carts that are pre-mounted on head shells. Is the SQ better? honestly, I can't tell; it seems sort of the same. the Denon is due to be recapped, as it takes about 15 minutes to warm up, until it will hold a steady speed- the Pro-Ject has no such issue.

 

[DavidTT]

I've owned a goodly number of turntables including several 'slab-plinth' modern models. My favorite and current long-term keeper is a Rega Planar 6, which has a good tonearm, a motor mounted directly to the plinth and simple rubber feet. It is truly sublime in operation, dead simple, silent, sounds wonderful. Rega has become overpriced in the US so I wouldn't buy a new one now but I'm very happy to have one.

I also loved a U-Turn Orbit Walnut a few years ago. It was their earlier version and sounded good but not as good as the P6. However, the genuine solid Walnut plinth was a thing of beauty and I still miss it. It too was a 'slab-plinth' machine. Their newest models use a longer, magnesium tonearm, offer electronic speed control, better motor mount systems and other improvements. If I needed a new turntable today I would buy an Orbit Theory in a heartbeat. U-Turn makes a great product with direct customer support better than most any other audio company.

We all have our own preferences. Of all of the machines I've owned my favorites have been the P6 and the Orbit. Simple, modern, excellent performance, great warranty, easy to take care of.

 

[krautmaster]

I have two of the 2016 Planar 3s, the first I turned into an SRM-Tech Azure, the second is the new 50th Anniversary Special Edition. The Rega RB330 arm, used on the Planar 3 and Planar 6, is an excellent arm that can handle a very expensive cartridge- the rest of the table is nothing special, especially their Exact 2 cartridges that have way too much output (7.3 mV). I now use an AT VM740ML on the Azure and am going to replace the Exact 2 on the 50th model with another 740ML or possibly a VM95SH after the holidays (when I have some cash again !).
As David TT said above, "Simple, modern, excellent performance, great warranty, easy to take care of."

 

[war2thegrave]

How good it is depends on your level of british nationalism.
If you think that the MG Midget is a fine, well-made, high performance
car, then go ahead and get a Rega.

 

[DavidTT]

How good it is depends on your level of british nationalism.
If you think that the MG Midget is a fine, well-made, high performance
car, then go ahead and get a Rega.

Ignorant, rude post that says much more about the poster than it does about Rega or Rega owners.

 

[war2thegrave]

Ignorant, rude post that says much more about the poster than it does about Rega or Rega owners.

There is no need to be upset as long as you 'feel' good about it.
Many people would not buy a $15 AT cartridge, but wouldn't flinch
at paying $70 for the same cartridge as long as the Rega name
is stamped into it.

 

[DavidTT]

There is no need to be upset as long as you 'feel' good about it.
Many people would not buy a $15 AT cartridge, but wouldn't flinch
at paying $70 for the same cartridge as long as the Rega name
is stamped into it.

Uh huh. Another one for the ignore pile. Great to never hear from you again.

 

[flavio81]

Don’t know if you consider them modern but Rega used o-rings for motor support.
That Pro-Ject table resembles the cheapest Rega, which I think, also uses a MDF platter.

Last time i checked a RP1, the motor was stuck to a foam pad which in turn was stuck to the underside of the plinth. As cheap as it gets.

Rega. Loved their tonearms- thought the rest of the turntables were pretty disposable.

Fully agree. But can't blame them, thought -- I think the tonearm is the most important part of the turntable, with the turntable bearing in #2.

IMHO, if you want the really good gear that Pro-Ject makes- buy a Music Hall. Better performance for the money, IMHO. The mmf5.3 is $1199, and a lot of $10K turntables DON'T sound as good.

Well, let's hope, i'm taking note. I had a MMF3.3 here for service, and I thought it sounded nice, however my Sony direct drive turntables, one with a Rega RB303 arm, and another with a SME 3009/III tonearm, totally obliterated them in sound quality.

I understand the 5.3 has an entirely different tonearm though.

Other than that, I found the 3.3 better built than a Rega RP3 or RP1.

 

[Powertech]

I've had various turntables over the years. I currently have a Pro-Ject P1.2 which i bought NOS. It had sat on a shelf for years and never even been assembled. It was touted as a good quality entry level turntable.
1. I never managed to get rid of the motor vibration. I'm an electronics engineer and I really tried everything I could think of. A common problem with these.
2. The pressed steel plater was warped and rang like a bell.
3. The mains synchronous motor ran slow (even with a replacement pulley and upgrade silicone belt).
4. Speed was also not very consistent and the wow value was close to 0.5%.
5. The tonearm is excellent. It has height and azithmus adjustment and a damped counterweight arm.

It now has the motor and platter from a Pioneer PL300 - Hanging rotor direct drive with an external regulated power supply. The Speed is within 0.01% accurate. Wow value is 0.01%. Speed is consistent. I use a smartphone RPM app and I think that it's actually below the measurable limits of the phone. There is no visible vertical or horizontal movement at the turntable edge. In fact, from across the room, unless there is a record on it you can't even see if it's rotating or not. I put a metal block on the plinth and landed the stylus on it with the motor running. There was no motor noise from the speakers, even when turned up.

The difference in the sound quality is phenomenal.

So now you have a relatively modern turntable (typical particle board plinth) with a 43 year old motor in it.
Why can't Project/Rega/all the others do this?

 

[MisterDK]

Last time i checked a RP1, the motor was stuck to a foam pad which in turn was stuck to the underside of the plinth. As cheap as it gets.

That seems very cheesy… Rega still sells that RP1, though.
If table shoppers only knew what junk those entry level Regas are, they’d probably shop and buy something else…

If I was wanting only new and had around 500- to spend, I’d probably consider a U-turn - at least they have a real wooden plinth option (not veneer) and an acrylic platter.

Thankfully though, I don’t mind fixing up a vintage, higher quality table... With vintage, my 500- goes much further toward having something nice.

 

[Chet63]

pro-ject electronics are not bad, if a little bit overpriced sometimes, but i would not buying anything pro-ject with a moving parts...

 

[Greenie]

I've had various turntables over the years. I currently have a Pro-Ject P1.2 which i bought NOS. It had sat on a shelf for years and never even been assembled. It was touted as a good quality entry level turntable.
1. I never managed to get rid of the motor vibration. I'm an electronics engineer and I really tried everything I could think of. A common problem with these.
2. The pressed steel plater was warped and rang like a bell.
3. The mains synchronous motor ran slow (even with a replacement pulley and upgrade silicone belt).
4. Speed was also not very consistent and the wow value was close to 0.5%.
5. The tonearm is excellent. It has height and azithmus adjustment and a damped counterweight arm.

It now has the motor and platter from a Pioneer PL300 - Hanging rotor direct drive with an external regulated power supply. The Speed is within 0.01% accurate. Wow value is 0.01%. Speed is consistent. I use a smartphone RPM app and I think that it's actually below the measurable limits of the phone. There is no visible vertical or horizontal movement at the turntable edge. In fact, from across the room, unless there is a record on it you can't even see if it's rotating or not. I put a metal block on the plinth and landed the stylus on it with the motor running. There was no motor noise from the speakers, even when turned up.

The difference in the sound quality is phenomenal.

So now you have a relatively modern turntable (typical particle board plinth) with a 43 year old motor in it.
Why can't Project/Rega/all the others do this?

Making a DD motor today, at much lower numbers/scale than in 1980, is expensive. If you pay enough money Technics will give you a decent one.

I bought an AT manual direct drive table (new AT-LP9X) a few years ago, £375. Nicely made, decent arm, fitted with a nice version of the AT95E cart'.

The motor produced significant wow to my (not very special) ears. It made listening to piano music in particular a chore.
I did not have a wrong 'un, when I finally found the spec it was 0.2% wow/flutter. Those specs are easily bettered by those belt drive, particle board plinth, motor glued on with a pad products.

We didn't know how good we had it back then.

 

[sanford12]

I have a Music Hall MMF 2.2 with maybe 50 hours. It's sat in a closest for several years. Thoroughly unimpressive TT.

 

[flavio81]

That seems very cheesy… Rega still sells that RP1, though.
If table shoppers only knew what junk those entry level Regas are, they’d probably shop and buy something else…

However, the tonearm on the RP1 is very good compared to the peers on the same price point. I bought a RP1 essentially to remove the tonearm, and sold off the rest.

The platter and drive system, as mentioned, was cheesy, and speed irregularity was readily evident on piano music. Moreover the motor pulley wasn't perfecly centered.
However, exchanging that miserable excuse for a platter with a glass platter improved things markedly.

Anyways, i woudn't call a RP1 "junk" at all because the tonearm is far from junk and the tonearm has a major contribution to the sound.