• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

What makes a good turntable good?

This example justifies what the original poster was stating. I own two Rolex's (I bought cheap in the 70's) but just about any $10 quartz watch will keep better time. People buy Rolex's almost entirely for the esthetics, workmanship, internal intricacy (like any good mechanical watch) and, last but not least, to show everyone "they've made it." They brag when their watch can be adjusted to 30 seconds per day accuracy. I don't think they would really help you win the America's Cup.

I totally agree regarding cartridges and needles but in most cases there is a point of diminishing returns for turntables that I personally feel is between $500 and $1000.

I'm slowly catching up. I really disagree with the watch/turntable analogy. A casio will keep as good of time as a Rolex. A $50 turntable will NOT retrieve the same amount of information from the grooves as a $3000 turntable. You own a Rolex for status, an admiration for its build, its fit and finish, whatever..but its ultimate role as a timepiece is accomplished just as well by your cellphone. That is not the case in turntables. An expensive turntable accomplishes its main task, playing records, better, and justifies its price through better performance.

There are good deals to be had by buying a turntable that was built when the economics of scale were more in favor of a manufacturer covering their costs with a larger sales volume. But the current niche market that turntables fall in has made room for some really no-nonsense designs that might not have made it when turntables were being bought by the masses. Everybody doesn't need an SME turntable and they might not ever have been made in mass quantities...they would have been hugely expensive even in the '70s. But back to the OP, to say that a $50 sony is as good is simply delusional. There are comments that can be debated, and there are comments that can be dismissed. There is no debating that fact. It is delusional, or the result of bad hearing, or a complete lack of experience with what is being compared. And that happens all the time. People in audio have this innate ability to somehow 'imagine' what something will sound like and dismiss it, because of something they assume instead of something they actually have heard.
 
If we take a normal common TT and compare with an expensive one, I´m sure that we retrieve the same information from the grooves, if using the same cartridge.
What not might be the same are added distortion. Then again we must not forget voicing and that knowing what one is listening to. If we don´t know what we are listening to, we are mostly lost.
gusten
 
If we take a normal common TT and compare with an expensive one, I´m sure that we retrieve the same information from the grooves, if using the same cartridge.
That's a myth, as has been explained in a previous post in this thread.
 
Tawny, I´m very sure it is a fact.
As I wrote: what might be not the same are added distortion, meaning it might not sound the same.
gusten
 
Tawny, I´m very sure it is a fact.
As I wrote: what might be not the same are added distortion, meaning it might not sound the same.
gusten

It is not a fact. The isolation of the entire system and the movement of the arm relative to the record through its precision of bearings/resonance/etc, would very much dictate what is able to be pulled from the grooves. Distortion is not added after the signal is retrieved. Distortion is distortion of the signal while it is being 'read' by the cartridge. Once it's picked up, wiring can surely affect the signal but it is already limited from the very movement of the whole system relative to the record. And the higher quality the turntable, the more the movement of the stylus is in relation to the information in the grooves and not from unrelated motion of the turntable system itself. Any slop in the system negates what can be relayed from the vinyl.
 
It is not a fact. The isolation of the entire system and the movement of the arm relative to the record through its precision of bearings/resonance/etc, would very much dictate what is able to be pulled from the grooves. Distortion is not added after the signal is retrieved. Distortion is distortion of the signal while it is being 'read' by the cartridge. Once it's picked up, wiring can surely affect the signal but it is already limited from the very movement of the whole system relative to the record. And the higher quality the turntable, the more the movement of the stylus is in relation to the information in the grooves and not from unrelated motion of the turntable system itself. Any slop in the system negates what can be relayed from the vinyl.
Sorry, but it is a fact. If the needle is not mistracing or mistracking it is reading the information. Added distortion is a modulation of the signal, and of course it is happening at the same time as reading the groove.
I say it again, if the stylus is not mistracing or mistracking it is reading the groove, it´s not that very difficult, it´s no mystery.
gusten
 
It is not a fact. The isolation of the entire system and the movement of the arm relative to the record through its precision of bearings/resonance/etc, would very much dictate what is able to be pulled from the grooves. Distortion is not added after the signal is retrieved. Distortion is distortion of the signal while it is being 'read' by the cartridge. Once it's picked up, wiring can surely affect the signal but it is already limited from the very movement of the whole system relative to the record. And the higher quality the turntable, the more the movement of the stylus is in relation to the information in the grooves and not from unrelated motion of the turntable system itself. Any slop in the system negates what can be relayed from the vinyl.

Well put, John. The only thing I'll add is that the distortions introduced during playback can include both additive distortions (underdamped resonances, acoustic feedback, flutter, rumble, etc.) and subtractive distortions (loss of detail due to tonearm bearing slop). Once these distortions are overlaid on the music, they can't be removed.
 
What is subtractive distortion, must be some new invention.
The distortions added when playing is of course modulating the signal. Meaning it will add second or even higher order sidebands, this means every tone played will also have an added tone, which will disturb the total information.
gusten
 
What is subtractive distortion, must be some new invention.
The distortions added when playing is of course modulating the signal. Meaning it will add second or even higher order sidebands, this means every tone played will also have an added tone, which will disturb the total information.
gusten

We are referring to deviation from the information on the vinyl as distortion. We can call it something else if that makes you happy.
 
What is subtractive distortion, must be some new invention.
The distortions added when playing is of course modulating the signal. Meaning it will add second or even higher order sidebands, this means every tone played will also have an added tone, which will disturb the total information.
gusten

There's nothing new about subtractive distortion; it's been a part of analog audio since 1877, when Edison's tin-foil phonograph reproduced just enough of the audio spectrum to be somewhat intelligible. Any component that loses part of the musical signal is guilty of it. It could be a tube amp that rolls off the top octave; or a cartridge that can't trace the finer undulations in a record groove; or a speaker with a frequency response "hole" in its crossover region; or a tonearm with bearing slop that allows the cartridge azimuth to vary, reducing the phase differences between channels and reducing separation. There are many more possibilities, of course.
 
JohnVF
I have already explained the reading of the signal in the groove, so I´m not quite sure I follow You. If You can´t understand it it just say so. You really have to know your mechanics to do so I´m afraid. It is really tricky.
gusten
 
There's nothing new about subtractive distortion; it's been a part of analog audio since 1877, when Edison's tin-foil phonograph reproduced just enough of the audio spectrum to be somewhat intelligible. Any component that loses part of the musical signal is guilty of it. It could be a tube amp that rolls off the top octave; or a cartridge that can't trace the finer undulations in a record groove; or a speaker with a frequency response "hole" in its crossover region; or a tonearm with bearing slop that allows the cartridge azimuth to vary, reducing the phase differences between channels and reducing separation. There are many more possibilities, of course.

No, no what You are referring is not the same, and You know it. Explain subtractive distortion please.
gusten
 
No, no what You are referring is not the same, and You know it. Explain subtractive distortion please.
gusten

That *is* the definition. Any degradation mechanism that removes part of the signal is by definition subtractive. Degradation mechanisms that add to the signal, such as harmonic or intermodulation distortion, would be classed as additive. Writers for the subjective review magazines tend to find subtractive distortions to be less irritating than the additive ones, with the possible exception of even-order harmonic distortion and the subjective "warmth" that it adds to the music.
 
That *is* the definition. Any degradation mechanism that removes part of the signal is by definition subtractive. Degradation mechanisms that add to the signal, such as harmonic or intermodulation distortion, would be classed as additive. Writers for the subjective review magazines tend to find subtractive distortions to be less irritating than the additive ones, with the possible exception of even-order harmonic distortion and the subjective "warmth" that it adds to the music.

I understand what You mean. In reality though it´s resonances that is affecting the main signal. Just to make this clear, a TT is reading the groove if it´s not mistracing or mistracking.
gusten
 
I understand what You mean. In reality though it´s resonances that is affecting the main signal. Just to make this clear, a TT is reading the groove if it´s not mistracing or mistracking.
gusten

There are a lot more than resonances that can affect the signal, even if the stylus is sitting nicely in the groove. Bearing noise from the motor, a badly warped piece of vinyl, all of those can send distortion through the stylus that can be heard audibly.

bs
 
There are a lot more than resonances that can affect the signal, even if the stylus is sitting nicely in the groove. Bearing noise from the motor, a badly warped piece of vinyl, all of those can send distortion through the stylus that can be heard audibly.

bs

My experince is that it´s resonances(mainly) and different types of vibrations that are are modulating the signal. These unwanted resonances are coming trough the tonearm, and the cartridge is then vibrating. Some noise is also possibly coming though the record itself, normally not so much.
What we really want is to keep the center of the suspension perfectly still in respect to reading, but perfectly following record imperfections.
This can not be done because it´s not an inert system, but it can be done better or worse.
gusten
 
My experince is that it´s resonances(mainly) and different types of vibrations that are are modulating the signal. These unwanted resonances are coming trough the tonearm, and the cartridge is then vibrating. Some noise is also possibly coming though the record itself, normally not so much.
What we really want is to keep the center of the suspension perfectly still in respect to reading, but perfectly following record imperfections.
This can not be done because it´s not an inert system, but it can be done better or worse.
gusten

I have not had much experience with resonance problems through the tonearm (as I understand resonance..). I think it's the 'different types of vibrations' that myself and others are referring to, but I don't want to speak for others.

bs
 
Back
Top Bottom