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What makes a good turntable good?

juggerjay

Active Member
I had long conversation with a guy yesterday who is convinced that a $50 SONY from Best Buy sounds the same as a turntable that costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars. He was saying it's all a sham to get people to buy the expensive products. He also said all needles are the same and as long as the turntable platter spins and the needle touches the record there is no difference between a low end SONY and a high end Thoren's except for the Thoren's being more cosmetically apealling. So my question to all of you is, what makes a good table sound better than a low end one?
 
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If his theory held true, then a Chevy Chevette and a Chevy Corvette are one and the same.

True, both get you from point A to point B, but that's about it, no?

Same for Rolex watch vs. Casio. Or Huffy vs. Cannondale. Or Budweiser vs. Sam Adams.


Quality of parts, level of execution, thought put into the end product is what makes a turntable, or most any product, a good one.

A bearing that's machined with strict tolerances vs one allowed a bit more "leeway".

Aluminum, wood, space-age polymers and HBMCs vs. chipwood and vinyl coating.

Robust power supply that feeds the electronics adequately, vs. parts chosen due to lowest cost.

All these things come into play, and the result is an improved audible experience, such as improved speed accuracy/stability, lower noise floor, increased detail retrieval, and so much more.


Tell your buddy you're going to bring him out for a steak dinner. Order him the hot-dog.

When he complains, tell him "Whattsa matter? It's food. It's all the same"....
 
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The guy actually runs a used book and record store and was very sincere in his convictions. He made a point of stating that if you ask anyone for specifics on why expensive tables are better, they won't have an answer for you. I didn't argue too much with him since I am new to the game but I did tell him that I recently owned a low end Sony, then upgraded to a new Denon DP300 with stock cartridge, then upgraded the stylus to a Shure97xe and there is a huge difference in sound now from where I was with the Sony. You can't deny that.
 
I had long conversation with a guy yesterday who is convinced that a $50 SONY from Best Buy sounds the same as a turntable that costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars.



I've never heard, just for an example, a VPI turntable. It is, however, highly unlikely that if you were to compare a cheap $50 Sony to a VPI that you'd come away saying the Sony sounded better or as good as the VPI.

Build quality, materials etc.
 
Ignorance knows no bounds! This guy is either really ignorant, or nearly deaf, or really :screwy:

If a $50 Sony sounded as good as a turntable that costs thousands, there is no reason to have expensive TTs, beyond rip-offs and snake oil. But there ARE reasons. (Of course, if the turntable that costs thousands is a "work of art" with a few diamonds glued onto a $50 Sony, then all bets are off... :D)

Vibration and its control is critical for any phono system's performance. After all, the stylus ("needle" to your friend) is picking up fluctuations --physically embedded patterns of vibration--from the physically-recorded groove, and using magnets and coils to translate that into electrically-fluctuating signals. That is where the "sound" begins - at the interface between stylus and vinyl, with the cart translating (transducing) the physically-encoded variations into electrical variations.

Ever do experiments with electromagnetic induction in school? Add a few coils, remove a few coils, move the magnets closer or farther away, change almost anything(!) and you will get a measurably different result. Motors are designed for different levels of speed and torque, using these principles. This is why different types and designs of carts have different outputs. Why do we have piezo, ceramic, MM and MC carts? Why are some carts LOMC and others HOMC? Because of these little differences in their design, their sonic output is different. Even if they were sonically the same in their qualitative output (which they are not), differences in output levels and impedance mean they will sound different, when matched with different phono preamps. Experimentation will easily confirm this.

Past the cartridge, the laws of inertia and motion --basic physics, really-- mean that the interaction between the cartridge and the tonearm will affect sound. This is why we talk about "compliance." The usual analogy (and a good one) is automotive springs: put heavy tractor springs on your Volkswagen, and you're in for a rough ride. Similarly, putting VW springs on a heavy tractor won't be satisfactory. But put compatible springs on each vehicle, and the performance will be fine. These differences, in a cart-tonearm interactive system, will be audible.

Moving the other direction from the cart-vinyl interface, the platter (and the mat atop it) is also a key factor, in several respects. The cartridge doesn't only pick up vibrations, it also causes them, vibrations that move through the vinyl record, and pass which then pass through (and/or are partially reflected off) the interface between the vinyl and the mat/platter underneath. A very large, heavy platter may help these vibrations to dissipate, whereas a thin and/or resonant one may reflect more of the vibration back into the record, to affect the interactive motion occurring at the stylus-vinyl interface.

Similarly, vibration may be caused by a poor bearing, and certainly will be caused by the motor that drives the TT. It may also come from outside factors, like footsteps across a floor. All those vibrations may pass up into and through the turntable, to that all-important stylus-vinyl interface.

To make an extreme and recent analogy, some people in Japan reported that they were unable to stand up during the recent Earthquake. Imagine you are trying to walk along a zig-zag painted line on the ground. Normally, this wouldn't be difficult. Now imagine you are trying to do this accurately while the ground is moving during an Earthquake. Suddenly you will be much less accurate in following that zig-zag line. You may even "skip" off of it entirely, which is what your stylus will do if you have springy floors and stomp right next to your TT!

A more massive plinth may help to dissipate vibration. It is easy to shake a big block of lightweight styrofoam back-and-forth, but try doing that to an equally-large slab of dense, heavy material. Clearly, the way vibrations pass through different materials matters.

Similarly, the resonance frequencies of the different materials used matters. Plenty of people here have heard improvements when they have damped the undersides of stamped-metal platters, to stop them from ringing.

What about speed fluctuations? Anyone who has ever listened to stretched tape, or more appropriately, ever stuck their finger against the edge of a record to slow it down while playing, or played with a variable speed control on a playing TT, knows that speed of rotation/playback affects sound. So how well the motor maintains an absolutely steady speed, affects sound. A high-torque DD motor or a well-coupled idler wheel powered by one, with very good speed stability, will give a more accurate sound. "Wow and flutter" are real things, that people can hear! This is why good belt drive TTs use very massive platters -- the higher mass of the big platter creates an inertial momentum, a "flywheel effect" that helps offset the design's inherently less-stable speed control. Try running a belt drive TT with a lightweight platter and a very stretchy belt, and tell me you don't hear a difference! Similarly, listen to records on an old direct drive whose speed controls are failing from age. Your ears will beg for mercy.

There are many other factors that affect sound. For example, the basic design. The tonearm materials, resonance and damping. Distribution of mass within a tonearm (again, basic physics at work). Platter-driving torque (Oh, just mentioned that!). Wiring and connections. Magnetic influence on cartridges (some Grado carts are notorious for picking up motor hum on some TTs). Physical layout (do those little wires that carry the tiny signal from the cart pass too near to the motor? Do they affect tonearm motion?) The precision ("slop" or the lack of it) of the actual parts, due to the manufacturing process. And more...

This guy is spouting stuff that both empirical evidence (experience and observation) AND lab-proven science (physics, chemistry, electricity and electronics --and all the engineering that stems from them) just proves to be untrue.

One might argue about just how much the refinements matter beyond a certain level. Probably the best-engineered turntable ever built was the Rockport Sirius III. I actually wonder whether our ears and brains are remotely capable of sensing differences on the scale of tolerances that that machine is built to. I doubt it. Very possibly, it went beyond the "law of diminishing returns" into an area where the improvements are way past our ability to detect them. But that in no way implies that there aren't differences that some highly-sensitive measuring gear could detect, or that it sounds remotely the same as the $50 Sony.

Let him enjoy his $50 Sony. I sold a cheap Sony TT a few weeks ago. If I could have convinced myself by any stretch of the imagination that it really sounded as good as my more expensive tables, I would have sold the more expensive ones in a flash. Who wouldn't like to have great sound AND more money in their pocket? But ANYONE --and this is not self-delusion, it could be proven double-blind without question-- could hear the differences, and the $50 Sony, while fine for some people in some situations, just didn't cut it in a good system, for someone looking for really good sound.

So why do expensive TTs cost so much more? Sure, to some extent there may sometimes be "marketing" involved, that isn't exactly related to sound quality, but at a more basic level, it costs more to make a TT better. Better research and development, which means better engineers (who charge more). More R&D to choose the best materials and designs. Working through various prototypes through multiple iterations, to make things better and better, all adds to cost. Balancing a platter costs more than leaving it unbalanced. Higher tolerances in bearings and other parts require better machines to make them, and better machines cost more. Sometimes the best materials are cheap, but these days just as often they are exotic new substances that cost more. Anyone can make a "bottle rocket" for pennies, but if you want to make one that will reach the moon and back, you'll have to pay an awful lot more pennies!

So what makes a good TT?
I think the most critical factors in a TTs sound are:

The tonearm and cart - sensitive, well-designed, well-made and well-matched.
The platter - big and heavy. Nothing disturbs its silent, relentless and accurate turning.
The bearing - smooth and silent.
The motor - high-torque, constant and silent.
The plinth - massive and vibration-sinking (/non-resonant).

The feet/base/stand/environment/system (i.e., the rest!) - work well as a system to handle the vibrations and deliver them to your ears in a way that replicates the sound as it was recorded on the record.

Let your friend live with his delusion. If it keeps him happy, then there is no harm done. But if you think he really should/would like to know better, set up a blind-comparison demo for him, and invite him over for a listening test. If he agrees, let him bring his own TT and cart, to be included in the test. He may resent you afterward, though, when he realizes how much he now needs to spend to get the sound he REALLY wants! :D
 
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People are free to believe whatever they like.
And even the most ridiculous stuff often has a grain of truth in it.
The bit of truth is that once you get to a certain level, it becomes exceedingly hard to get much better.
Regarding turntables, once wow, flutter and rumble are reduced to below audible levels, and you have a decent arm and decent cartridge set up, it gets mighty hard & expensive to do much better.
That cheap Sony has a long way to go. But the Denon/Shure M97will be hard to improve on, and will cost an arm and a leg to do so.
I have a Pioneer PL-516/Shure M97 upstairs, and it sounds good, but it has a bit of rumble. Downstairs is a stock AR XA with Shure V15 typeIII. I really like the sound, and can hear no flaws in it. Could I get something better without spending $1000? Could I hear the difference?
But some people would mock that setup and say how poor it sounded!
Maybe your friend there just can't hear stuff very well. To him the cheapest is good enough.
 
How old is this guy? What has his history of noise exposure, ear infections, etc... been, over his lifetime? Has he had his ears tested?

Seriously, if your hearing is sufficiently impaired, then his statement may be absolutely true, to your ears. To a nearly blind man, a Picasso probably looks as good as a Rembrandt. Perhaps for him, if his hearing is poor, it really is true? IF that is the case, then fine --let him enjoy his cheap Sony!
 
Downstairs is a stock AR XA with Shure V15 typeIII.

The AR turntable demonstrates that intelligent engineering can trump money.

I wouldn't want to say it's as good as the best modern TTs, but I would argue that it's better engineered than most. Aside from the lack of anti-skating, and the rather flimsy cartridge shell, it hold up pretty well.

I don't think it's method of isolating the table and arm from vibration has ever been surpassed. Even if lots of weight and money can achieve marginally better numbers.

I suppose I'm just more attracted to brilliant ideas than I am to throwing money at problems.
 
I didn't read every post here. But at least some of the differences between a low end table and a high end table (and cart) are:

1. Wow and flutter
2. Rumble
3. Resonance
4. Tracking
5. Wear
6. Detail
7. Noise Floor
8. Aesthetics
9. Acoustic Feedback

This is without getting into more subjective issues such as imaging, sounds stage, etc.
 
Downstairs is a stock AR XA with Shure V15 typeIII. I really like the sound, and can hear no flaws in it. Could I get something better without spending $1000?
How much would an XA cost if produced now? Possibly more than $1000. The better question is, "Could I get something better without spending $3000?" And I'm sure you could. And I don't think you'd consider a tt costing $30,000 a waste of money, for those who can afford it.
 
How much would an XA cost if produced now? Possibly more than $1000. The better question is, "Could I get something better without spending $3000?" And I'm sure you could. And I don't think you'd consider a tt costing $30,000 a waste of money, for those who can afford it.

I could easily see an AR XA reaching $1000 if it had to be tooled from scratch today. The number of precision-machined parts in an XA, and the small volumes over which the costs of casting, molding and stamping tools for the non-machined parts would have to be amortized, would quickly push the retail price up to the four-figure range.
 
I have a friend that is REALLY into music.....not the technolgy but music. He would agree that the $50 Sony sounds as good as a 1k TT, but he just can't hear the difference. BUT I don't think I know anyone so passionate about music. All depends on your point of view.

I would rather have a so-so TT that looks really cool than a great TT that looks bland. I have great ears but my sense of art and beauty is just as strong, or stronger, than my dedication to sonic accuacy. As long as it is clean, I can live with it.

My new TT is my avitar.
 
I could easily see an AR XA reaching $1000 if it had to be tooled from scratch today.

You're assuming low volume sales. Which is probably realistic.

The beautiful thing about the AR was not its very few precision parts, but the ideas behind it's approach to problems.

All the money that went into it could be heard. Or not heard, as the case may be.
 
Ignorance knows no bounds! This guy is either really ignorant, or nearly deaf, or really :screwy:

If a $50 Sony sounded as good as a turntable that costs thousands, there is no reason to have expensive TTs, beyond rip-offs and snake oil. But there ARE reasons. (Of course, if the turntable that costs thousands is a "work of art" with a few diamonds glued onto a $50 Sony, then all bets are off... :D)

Vibration and its control is critical for any phono system's performance. After all, the stylus ("needle" to your friend) is picking up fluctuations --physically embedded patterns of vibration--from the physically-recorded groove, and using magnets and coils to translate that into electrically-fluctuating signals. That is where the "sound" begins - at the interface between stylus and vinyl, with the cart translating (transducing) the physically-encoded variations into electrical variations.

Ever do experiments with electromagnetic induction in school? Add a few coils, remove a few coils, move the magnets closer or farther away, change almost anything(!) and you will get a measurably different result. Motors are designed for different levels of speed and torque, using these principles. This is why different types and designs of carts have different outputs. Why do we have piezo, ceramic, MM and MC carts? Why are some carts LOMC and others HOMC? Because of these little differences in their design, their sonic output is different. Even if they were sonically the same in their qualitative output (which they are not), differences in output levels and impedance mean they will sound different, when matched with different phono preamps. Experimentation will easily confirm this.

Past the cartridge, the laws of inertia and motion --basic physics, really-- mean that the interaction between the cartridge and the tonearm will affect sound. This is why we talk about "compliance." The usual analogy (and a good one) is automotive springs: put heavy tractor springs on your Volkswagen, and you're in for a rough ride. Similarly, putting VW springs on a heavy tractor won't be satisfactory. But put compatible springs on each vehicle, and the performance will be fine. These differences, in a cart-tonearm interactive system, will be audible.

Moving the other direction from the cart-vinyl interface, the platter (and the mat atop it) is also a key factor, in several respects. The cartridge doesn't only pick up vibrations, it also causes them, vibrations that move through the vinyl record, and pass which then pass through (and/or are partially reflected off) the interface between the vinyl and the mat/platter underneath. A very large, heavy platter may help these vibrations to dissipate, whereas a thin and/or resonant one may reflect more of the vibration back into the record, to affect the interactive motion occurring at the stylus-vinyl interface.

Similarly, vibration may be caused by a poor bearing, and certainly will be caused by the motor that drives the TT. It may also come from outside factors, like footsteps across a floor. All those vibrations may pass up into and through the turntable, to that all-important stylus-vinyl interface.

To make an extreme and recent analogy, some people in Japan reported that they were unable to stand up during the recent Earthquake. Imagine you are trying to walk along a zig-zag painted line on the ground. Normally, this wouldn't be difficult. Now imagine you are trying to do this accurately while the ground is moving during an Earthquake. Suddenly you will be much less accurate in following that zig-zag line. You may even "skip" off of it entirely, which is what your stylus will do if you have springy floors and stomp right next to your TT!

A more massive plinth may help to dissipate vibration. It is easy to shake a big block of lightweight styrofoam back-and-forth, but try doing that to an equally-large slab of dense, heavy material. Clearly, the way vibrations pass through different materials matters.

Similarly, the resonance frequencies of the different materials used matters. Plenty of people here have heard improvements when they have damped the undersides of stamped-metal platters, to stop them from ringing.

What about speed fluctuations? Anyone who has ever listened to stretched tape, or more appropriately, ever stuck their finger against the edge of a record to slow it down while playing, or played with a variable speed control on a playing TT, knows that speed of rotation/playback affects sound. So how well the motor maintains an absolutely steady speed, affects sound. A high-torque DD motor or a well-coupled idler wheel powered by one, with very good speed stability, will give a more accurate sound. "Wow and flutter" are real things, that people can hear! This is why good belt drive TTs use very massive platters -- the higher mass of the big platter creates an inertial momentum, a "flywheel effect" that helps offset the design's inherently less-stable speed control. Try running a belt drive TT with a lightweight platter and a very stretchy belt, and tell me you don't hear a difference! Similarly, listen to records on an old direct drive whose speed controls are failing from age. Your ears will beg for mercy.

There are many other factors that affect sound. For example, the basic design. The tonearm materials, resonance and damping. Distribution of mass within a tonearm (again, basic physics at work). Platter-driving torque (Oh, just mentioned that!). Wiring and connections. Magnetic influence on cartridges (some Grado carts are notorious for picking up motor hum on some TTs). Physical layout (do those little wires that carry the tiny signal from the cart pass too near to the motor? Do they affect tonearm motion?) The precision ("slop" or the lack of it) of the actual parts, due to the manufacturing process. And more...

This guy is spouting stuff that both empirical evidence (experience and observation) AND lab-proven science (physics, chemistry, electricity and electronics --and all the engineering that stems from them) just proves to be untrue.

One might argue about just how much the refinements matter beyond a certain level. Probably the best-engineered turntable ever built was the Rockport Sirius III. I actually wonder whether our ears and brains are remotely capable of sensing differences on the scale of tolerances that that machine is built to. I doubt it. Very possibly, it went beyond the "law of diminishing returns" into an area where the improvements are way past our ability to detect them. But that in no way implies that there aren't differences that some highly-sensitive measuring gear could detect, or that it sounds remotely the same as the $50 Sony.

Let him enjoy his $50 Sony. I sold a cheap Sony TT a few weeks ago. If I could have convinced myself by any stretch of the imagination that it really sounded as good as my more expensive tables, I would have sold the more expensive ones in a flash. Who wouldn't like to have great sound AND more money in their pocket? But ANYONE --and this is not self-delusion, it could be proven double-blind without question-- could hear the differences, and the $50 Sony, while fine for some people in some situations, just didn't cut it in a good system, for someone looking for really good sound.

So why do expensive TTs cost so much more? Sure, to some extent there may sometimes be "marketing" involved, that isn't exactly related to sound quality, but at a more basic level, it costs more to make a TT better. Better research and development, which means better engineers (who charge more). More R&D to choose the best materials and designs. Working through various prototypes through multiple iterations, to make things better and better, all adds to cost. Balancing a platter costs more than leaving it unbalanced. Higher tolerances in bearings and other parts require better machines to make them, and better machines cost more. Sometimes the best materials are cheap, but these days just as often they are exotic new substances that cost more. Anyone can make a "bottle rocket" for pennies, but if you want to make one that will reach the moon and back, you'll have to pay an awful lot more pennies!

So what makes a good TT?
I think the most critical factors in a TTs sound are:

The tonearm and cart - sensitive, well-designed, well-made and well-matched.
The platter - big and heavy. Nothing disturbs its silent, relentless and accurate turning.
The bearing - smooth and silent.
The motor - high-torque, constant and silent.
The plinth - massive and vibration-sinking (/non-resonant).

The feet/base/stand/environment/system (i.e., the rest!) - work well as a system to handle the vibrations and deliver them to your ears in a way that replicates the sound as it was recorded on the record.

Let your friend live with his delusion. If it keeps him happy, then there is no harm done. But if you think he really should/would like to know better, set up a blind-comparison demo for him, and invite him over for a listening test. If he agrees, let him bring his own TT and cart, to be included in the test. He may resent you afterward, though, when he realizes how much he now needs to spend to get the sound he REALLY wants! :D


Great write up Arkay.... all the things you wrote about I used as criteria when designing and building my last TT.
 
The guy actually runs a used book and record store and was very sincere in his convictions....

I have a friend that is REALLY into music.....not the technolgy but music. He would agree that the $50 Sony sounds as good as a 1k TT, but he just can't hear the difference. BUT I don't think I know anyone so passionate about music...



Funny you should say this.

A record store owner I know, and most of his employees, run basic TTs. They enjoy the music, but could care less about the intricate detail retrieval and nuances of the music- if it makes sound, they are happy. The quality of the sound, as long as it isn't horrible, is acceptable to them.

Down the street at another record shop, similar story. One of the fellas who works there has a radio show- I asked him what they use at the station, and does he bring his own carts to use, what tracking force, etc. He said he didn't know what the TTs were, and he just uses whatever carts they have on the tables. And his own setup- he doesn't fuss with all that "adjusting mumbo jumbo"- he just gets it "close enough".
 
My initial response to the question what makes a turntable good was simply that it's the one I enjoy. So, if the the guy likes his Sony, then it's a good turntable.
 
deaf?

I had long conversation with a guy yesterday who is convinced that a $50 SONY from Best Buy sounds the same as a turntable that costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars. He was saying it's all a sham to get people to buy the expensive products. He also said all needles are the same and as long as the turntable platter spins and the needle touches the record there is no difference between a low end SONY and a high end Thoren's except for the Thoren's being more cosmetically apealling.
 
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