What makes a good turntable good?

[KentTeffeteller]

Gentlemen,

The AR XA would be scary expensive due to it's engineering and build quality. It in many ways slays a Rega of any model, even P9 level in build quality and it's bearings and motor are several orders of magnitude better and it's platter system and plinth are also several orders of magnitude better. The only modern table as well executed is the Linn Sondek LP-12 which basically is an AR XA or Thorens TD 150/160 on steroids when all is said and done. So would cost more like $2500 plus to make today.

 

[sculptura]

this is exactly what i've noticed with the record shops i'm familiar with, including the one nearby where all the musicians go. Come to think of it, while some of the musicians i know own a better than the usual-for-the-masses-quality sound system, i'm surprised by how many of them could care less about the equipment or the sound -- as long as it can play tunes.

cancel

 

[jjtucker2]

I have owned one of those "$50 Sonys". I now own a PL-530. No comparison. Absolutely none. I'll have to disagree with your friend (or at least claim that I have better hearing, in this case).

That being said, I have heard a $700 turntable that I did not think sounded much better than the PL-530. The Pioneer has slight rumble, but very little to my ears. As far as the music goes, I don't think I could really tell the two apart without having to put in some effort.

I think the law of diminishing returns applies here. And maybe that is the point your friend is trying to make. There is a huge difference between a $50 and a $400 TT. Probably not so much between a $400 and a $1000 TT. Same cartridges, mind you. My gut says that once you pass $1000 you are paying for very subtle differences. And to some, that is important.

And if he is truly happy with his TT, that is just great.

 

[eb2jim]

I have never run into people more into music as 45 collectors, but they are into the "song." They want the rare 45s to be in great shape, but then they listen to them at shows on those freaking horrid 60s Japanese portable record players that look like shrunken typewriter cases. They sound atrocious, and they NEVER play on pitch, and I swear most of them have whupped needles. I think most of those 45 guys have garbage stereos at home. Unless they inherited mom and dads console. So, there are a lot of people who just don't get sound.

I think for me, even at my lowest college period, I had a decent receiver and turntable. That was important to me, even if I spent half the time with Koss headphones on to not bother roommates and neighbors. Once I became aware of rumble and clanky resonant machines, I couldn't do that. But I have friends with massive collections who just don't listen that closely.

I believe it is possible - using CL or yardsales - to have great turntables for less than $50, at least until recently.

 

[voltcontrol]

I think post #2 in this thread says enough.. Still we take the bait.

 

[leepal]

I think post #2 in this thread says enough.. Still we take the bait.

He probably was trolling but it does raise the issue that some people collect records (or CDs) but don't pay much attention to the sound quality.

I remember before I was into hi-fi (not that I'm an expert) a housemate bought a really, really cheap and nasty "all-in-one" CD playing system. We all agreed it sounded cack.

 

[tawny]

I have owned one of those "$50 Sonys". I now own a PL-530. No comparison. Absolutely none. I'll have to disagree with your friend (or at least claim that I have better hearing, in this case).

I don't think there's any argument about that. The guy is either tone deaf, or stirring.

That being said, I have heard a $700 turntable that I did not think sounded much better than the PL-530.

Why do people seem to need to go off-topic on this?

How much would a Hall-effect motor PL-530 cost, made from scratch, in today's market? Maybe $700. Remember that things are not at all as they were in the 70s, when Pioneer had a large global market for its tts, making unit production costs low. CD knocked that on the head, and with an even bigger market reduced its own unit prices to a very low level, swamping tts out of the market to cause a rise in tt prices, quite often for inferior performance. To get a realistic view of tt performance, it's necessary to appraise only the current market.

If people really suppose that performance does not rise with real cost, let them audition a top level tt against their own. Imv they will think again. Rather than buy one turntable and a dozen cartridges, they will prefer to buy just one of each, the cartridge being perhaps ever so cheap and cheerful.

 

[Arkay]

I think post #2 in this thread says enough.. Still we take the bait.

That's half the fun of it, for a bunch of guys who love to "talk audio." Sometimes even an obvious troll is a good enough excuse to talk about something we share an interest in!

 

[KrisM]

That's half the fun of it, for a bunch of guys who love to "talk audio." Sometimes even an obvious troll is a good enough excuse to talk about something we share an interest in!

Good point. It's part of why most of us are here.
I'm sure if you took this thread over to a car-nut board they would think we are a bunch of losers. But then again, they would probably be arguing over inflation rates on tires or something.
We also get to feel good about ourselves compared to a person who thinks a $50 new table sounds decent. Now excuse me while I put a record on my $2000+ AR-XA(that I paid $20 for).

 

[Brett a]

I had long conversation with a guy yesterday who is convinced that a $50 SONY from Best Buy sounds the same as a turntable that costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

No problem there. That's his subjective opinion.

He was saying it's all a sham to get people to buy the expensive products. He also said all needles are the same and as long as the turntable platter spins and the needle touches the record there is no difference between a low end SONY and a high end Thoren's except for the Thoren's being more cosmetically apealling.

Now here's the problem. And it simply seems like another case of someone confusing their opinions/judgments with objective truth. And often when people start doing that, there's no use in continuing a conversation, best to just smile, nod, and walk away.

So my question to all of you is, what makes a good table sound better than a low end one?

Better turntables are designed and built to be sonically invisible. Others here have already listed the considerations and challenges inherent in that aim.

But all the talking (typing) about it isn't going to inform anyone about the pleasure of a good turntable; the only way to truly know a good turntable is to listen to one reproduce music.

 

[Cypry]

Better turntables are designed and built to be sonically invisible. Others here have already listed the considerations and challenges inherent in that aim.

But all the talking (typing) about it isn't going to inform anyone about the pleasure of a good turntable; the only way to truly know a good turntable is to listen to one reproduce music.[/QUOTE]


To true,when you move upmarket,you generally get a better engineering,with much finer tolerences,which in turn leads to greater playback accuracy.
A turntable is a simple device,it has only one function,to spin a disc at the required speed,but factor in all the other requirements and it becomes a complicated piece of kit to acheive optimum performance.

 

[guest102]

How do you accurately describe being weightless to somebody who has stood on the ground all his life?

Nobody has experienced everything that is possible. There are some things which the uninitiated simply have to live through to understand. Mere words cannot convey many feelings and sensations, and if one's knowledge of something is below rudimentary he may not know what questions to ask toward greater understanding.

If some poor neophyte needs an experience to understand then the experience needs to be provided.

 

[jjtucker2]

I don't think there's any argument about that. The guy is either tone deaf, or stirring.

Why do people seem to need to go off-topic on this?

How much would a Hall-effect motor PL-530 cost, made from scratch, in today's market? Maybe $700. Remember that things are not at all as they were in the 70s, when Pioneer had a large global market for its tts, making unit production costs low.

I don't think this is off topic. I was comparing a PL-530 TT to a Sony ($50) TT. That is all. And I was supporting my opinion that the "record store guy" in the OP's story was incorrect (or at least somewhat deaf) with my own facts. Now, if you want to argue your point that the PL-530 TT is probably closer to $700 in today's value, if it was made today, then I'll probably agree with you. I was not trying to make the used value vs. current value performance argument. Sorry if it seemed that way.

 

[voltcontrol]

That's half the fun of it, for a bunch of guys who love to "talk audio." Sometimes even an obvious troll is a good enough excuse to talk about something we share an interest in!

Ghehe, and I'm no hair better. Guess it was my bad mood today that sparked the earlier remark. Game on guys, keep beating that dead horse.

 

[voltcontrol]

That's half the fun of it, for a bunch of guys who love to "talk audio." Sometimes even an obvious troll is a good enough excuse to talk about something we share an interest in!

Ghehe, and I'm no hair better. Guess it was my bad mood today that sparked the earlier remark. Game on guys, keep beating that dead horse.

(#Takes up the club# )
If the story from the OP is for real, then it's very sad that the owner of a used record store has this illfounded belief.

 

[juggerjay]

Wow, going to back to read all the comments now

 

[tawny]

I don't think this is off topic. I was comparing a PL-530 TT to a Sony ($50) TT. That is all.

"That being said, I have heard a $700 turntable that I did not think sounded much better than the PL-530."

Not all.

 

[bshorey]

The guy actually runs a used book and record store and was very sincere in his convictions. He made a point of stating that if you ask anyone for specifics on why expensive tables are better, they won't have an answer for you. I didn't argue too much with him since I am new to the game but I did tell him that I recently owned a low end Sony, then upgraded to a new Denon DP300 with stock cartridge, then upgraded the stylus to a Shure97xe and there is a huge difference in sound now from where I was with the Sony. You can't deny that.

Ok, I'll give you a few specifics. I'm sure others could offer more.

1) Isolation from external vibrations - cheap turntables have little in the way of isolation, better turntables have more. Vibrations that find their way through the feet will have an effect on the stylus, as that is a device that is made specifically for turning vibrations into electrical signals.

2) Quality of the motor - cheap motors may also introduce vibrations into the mix, especially through rumbling bearings, etc. If the speed control is not good then there will also be wow and flutter.

3) Cartridge/stylus - better ones will separate the signal of the individual channels better. They'll also react faster, and have better frequency response.

4) Tone arms - light weight will react quicker to deviations in record roundness and flatness. A heavy arm won't, and therefore may introduce wow and flutter as it cannot react to these imperfections.

There are a few. I'm no turntable expert, but those should be easily articulated and understood. They should also be inherently obvious to any non biased person that puts some thought into things.

HTH,

bs

 

[juggerjay]

"The person claiming that a $50 Sony TT is as good as one costing $1,000+ seems to me being a record/bookstore owner is more interested in the records than the machine that plays them. I think it is best to find a happy balance between the two, good quality records and a good quality TT that makes the records sound their best and keeping everything within an affordable budget. On the otherhand the record/bookstore owner may spend a fortune for "collectable" records."

The funny thing about this is he is actually more of an equipment guy. He just started dealing in records and has admitted to knowing very little about them. It is his experience in the field of electronics that have convinced him it is all smoke and mirrors. I don't know... it sounds like he just has an opinion and wanted to be stubborn about it. Nice guy though and I love his place! I've picked up a lot of records there recently. Lots of good info in this thread though... I'll keep reading. Oh and I wanted to add that I picked up a mint PL15DII yesterday. Really beautiful vintage table IMO.

 

[juggerjay]

and to be clear I'm not even sure that he owns a Sony but that was the brand that was being kicked around in discussion and "anything they sell at Best Buy".