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What makes a good turntable good?

juggerjay said:
I had long conversation with a guy yesterday who is convinced that a $50 SONY from Best Buy sounds the same as a turntable that costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars. He was saying it's all a sham to get people to buy the expensive products. He also said all needles are the same and as long as the turntable platter spins and the needle touches the record there is no difference between a low end SONY and a high end Thoren's except for the Thoren's being more cosmetically apealling. So my question to all of you is, what makes a good table sound better than a low end one?
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Did he tell you all of this in sign language?
 
thedelihaus said:
Rolex watch vs. Casio.....
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This example justifies what the original poster was stating. I own two Rolex's (I bought cheap in the 70's) but just about any $10 quartz watch will keep better time. People buy Rolex's almost entirely for the esthetics, workmanship, internal intricacy (like any good mechanical watch) and, last but not least, to show everyone "they've made it." They brag when their watch can be adjusted to 30 seconds per day accuracy. I don't think they would really help you win the America's Cup.

I totally agree regarding cartridges and needles but in most cases there is a point of diminishing returns for turntables that I personally feel is between $500 and $1000.
 
Dr Tinear said:
I could easily see an AR XA reaching $1000 if it had to be tooled from scratch today. The number of precision-machined parts in an XA, and the small volumes over which the costs of casting, molding and stamping tools for the non-machined parts would have to be amortized, would quickly push the retail price up to the four-figure range.
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I agree. A look at the cost of some of the mods gives a pretty good idea of this, I think. How it would stack up against another $1000 current table? That's a can of worms for another day.:D
I enjoy my XA/V15III combo, but I've never had the chance to demo a $1000 player next to it, on my system.

As for the original post, I have a feeling that the guy has a cheap, plastic $50 Sony, and thinks it sounds fine. How he can think that is beyond me, but whatever. But if a $50 Thorens dropped in his lap, he would be changing his tune. He would probably be saying how great it is, and how it is just as good as a $3000 _______ table. I know if I got into a conversation like this it certainly wouldn't be a "long" one. If somebody played the "all turntables sound the same" card, I would be changing the subject to something else. Like the 2011 World Series Champion Philadelphia Phillies.:thmbsp:
 
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The person claiming that a $50 Sony TT is as good as one costing $1,000+ seems to me being a record/bookstore owner is more interested in the records than the machine that plays them. I think it is best to find a happy balance between the two, good quality records and a good quality TT that makes the records sound their best and keeping everything within an affordable budget. On the otherhand the record/bookstore owner may spend a fortune for "collectable" records.
 
I have a $35 Thorens TD-160 that would put his $50 Sony to shame.

td1601.jpg
 
An inexpensive, but marginally competent turntable attached to a marginal sound system, probably will have very little difference in sound when you hook up a decent turntable with a decent cartridge.

An inexpensive TT and cartridge on a higher end sound system that can distinguish the nuances of sound stage, has clarity of sound with low distortion, etc., is noticeble.

My son, into his Ipod, can distinguish between cartridges, and realizes some sound different (and better) than others. And my whole system is only vintage high end "midfi+ - not the really good stuff. I can really imagine what the difference is on a real discerning system.


What I am saying is that many sounds systems won't do the high end turntable justice.
 
thedelihaus said:
Funny you should say this.

A record store owner I know, and most of his employees, run basic TTs. They enjoy the music, but could care less about the intricate detail retrieval and nuances of the music- if it makes sound, they are happy. The quality of the sound, as long as it isn't horrible, is acceptable to them.

Down the street at another record shop, similar story. One of the fellas who works there has a radio show- I asked him what they use at the station, and does he bring his own carts to use, what tracking force, etc. He said he didn't know what the TTs were, and he just uses whatever carts they have on the tables. And his own setup- he doesn't fuss with all that "adjusting mumbo jumbo"- he just gets it "close enough".
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This is exactly what I've noticed with the record shops I'm familiar with, including the one nearby where all the musicians go. Come to think of it, while some of the musicians I know own a better than the usual-for-the-masses-quality sound system, I'm surprised by how many of them could care less about the equipment or the sound -- as long as it can play tunes.
 
juggerjay said:
I had long conversation with a guy yesterday who is convinced that a $50 SONY from Best Buy sounds the same as a turntable that costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars.
Best Buy sells a turntable WITH CARTRIDGE retail for $50? I can't imagine how it sounds. It can't be very good. It's turntables like that that sold CD's and CD players in the 1980's.

I haven't been to a Best Buy in years, so I wouldn't know about these things (though I've seen $125 "USB turntables" online), but now I'm tempted to stop by, just to see this cheap, er, inexpensive wonder.
juggerjay said:
He was saying it's all a sham to get people to buy the expensive products. He also said all needles are the same and as long as the turntable platter spins and the needle touches the record there is no difference between a low end SONY and a high end Thoren's except for the Thoren's being more cosmetically apealling. So my question to all of you is, what makes a good table sound better than a low end one?
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A cheap turntable may have a continuous rumble or some other noise in the background, starting with the stylus touching the record. Sustained piano notes may have vibrato or other pitch changes (other instruments too, but such problems are most obvious on piano). A brand new record played with a brand new cheap cartridge and stylus may sound like worn-out, overplayed record.

A good turntable, cartridge and stylus does not have any of these problems, and they all add up to an easily heard (by many or most people) difference.

Yes, I have no doubt YOU can hear the difference, and I and surely all others on AK can hear the difference, but maybe he can't. I don't even believe that, though - if he were put in a controlled blind test I have little doubt he or ANYONE with anywhere near normal hearing can hear the difference.

Your question "What makes a goood turntable sound better" is good for discussion here, but is moot as far as talking to this guy - stop beating your head against the brick wall of his claims, just accept that he believes that way. It's not your job to convince anyone of the advantages of hifi if they are uninterested or (as this case appears) they actively disbelieve.
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Last year I had the opportunity to visit a recording studio and spoke with the owner at length and listen to music that had been recorded there. The equipment was all top shelf and the music reflected the effort, time and exspence put into the recording. He demonstrated different speakers he used for mixing and playback. One set of speakers I noticed were quite small/simple compared to the other two pairs that were larger and certainly much more exspensive. I ventured to guess that the smaller speakers were to used to judge what the recordings would sound like on the average home/car audio system. He said that was the case. Point here is that the "average" audio playback system in most peoples home/car/earbuds etc is probably so lowend that anything an AK member would have would be considered "audiophile". My brother also is of the same opinion that when visiting friends he has never seen anything outside of what you would find at WalMart, like a Crosley.
 
That bit about Rolex, shows people you have arrived.....late! In UK wearing a Rolex sets you as a secondhand car dealer. I have nothing against used car dealers, they are some of my best enemies!

If you really want accuracy, get Breitling, 5 secs per year and you don't look like a High Street jeweller on the make. Trouble is, the opening speech is still going on.. get a Rolex and miss the boring bits.

Old people like to be contentious...I am old. Please don't take all our fun away. Besides, we will always scorn what we don't have or can afford...
 
I've met plenty of guys that say stuff like this. They suffer from a hopeless case of El Cheapo disease. They hate to spend money and fantasize that everything is the same and that all high prices are a scam.
 
Who said what about a used car salesman? You should check out some of the cars people bring in for trade. And yes I proudly wear a Rolex.
 
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Condorsat said:
Yes ... and some people think a $5 bottle of wine is just as good as a $50 bottle of wine ... all coffee is the same .... there is no difference between restaurants ... etc.

It's called a belief ... a conviction of the mind. Once someone decides to make something a belief ... it takes a very strong event to shake it.
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But the person involved has just as much enjoyment for a lot less money.
 
jlovda said:
But the person involved has just as much enjoyment for a lot less money.
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A person who actually enjoys a $50 tt poking a signal into a $50 amp into $50 speakers is not having nearly as much enjoyment as one who appreciates a top level system. He just has a very low threshold of satisfaction*, like a baby seeing a bubble for the first time.

* Or should that be a very high pain threshold. :)
 
Someone who enjoys a system composed of a $50 (new) turntable and similar components probably just doesn't care about sound quality. But that doesn't mean there isn't significantly better sound quality available at reasonable prices.
 
Low wow, low flutter,

low rumble, a favorite cartridge (they all sound different), and a GREAT RECORD, your choice.
 
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