What makes the most impact in sound quality
- Thread starter AngelRa
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Jon_Logan
Addicted Member
Beating a dead horse.
I'm going to stick with speakers because:
I'm a$$uming that we all have similar access to sources and that we all can hear. Most of us don't make our own open reel recordings for reference material. In a reproduction system, recorded source to SPL is something we all have. There's a wide range of high quality source material we all have access to. That being said, speakers have the largest input signal to output error ratio of all other components. ...by a wide margin.
I'm going to stick with speakers because:
I'm a$$uming that we all have similar access to sources and that we all can hear. Most of us don't make our own open reel recordings for reference material. In a reproduction system, recorded source to SPL is something we all have. There's a wide range of high quality source material we all have access to. That being said, speakers have the largest input signal to output error ratio of all other components. ...by a wide margin.
henkuk
Active Member
FIRST, THE SELDOM-THOUGHT-OF STUFF:
No one has mentioned the ABSOLUTE MOST IMPORTANT element of all...
That pinkish-greyish, wrinkly pudding-esque thing called a brain that sits between, and is connected to, your ears. Without it, NOTHING is heard, sensed, felt or even imagined, let alone enjoyed. You can spend your listening time so over-analyzing the sonic characteristics of the system, or so preoccupied with tomorrow's presentation at work, or perhaps sound asleep or even unconscious in a coma, that the whole experience is wasted.
Another important thing, also un-mentioned, is the air that carries the sound vibrations from the transducers (drivers in your speakers or headphones) to your ears. [EXCEPTION: The Bone Phone is being ignored here...] The old line is true: In space (i.e., in an airless vacuum), no one can hear you scream... let alone a Dvorak symphony or a Beatles tune! Music sounds different when transmitted through pure helium or nitrogen or any other pure or mixed gas, other than Earth's air, and may even sound different when the air is at different pressures and humidity levels. We tend to ignore this, because we can do precious little about it, in practical terms.
Related to this, is the room in which the air is confined. Sound waves passing through the air will reflect off of the various surfaces they encounter, and this creates interference patterns, peaks and nulls that affect what we hear. Depending on what these surfaces consist of, and where they are located vis-a-vis the speakers and our ears, the effects may differ greatly, giving us everything from "extremely lively" rooms to dull rooms to anechoic chambers. Only if you could suspend both you and your system well above the Earth, hanging in open space, could you eliminate the effects of the room. Anechoic chambers are an attempt to simulate this condition. The best-sounding system will probably exist somewhere between the extremes, with a "pleasing" balance of reflections that help our brain interpret sonic clues.
The fourth thing that is VERY IMPORTANT is probably the incoming electricity itself. Feed a really noisy, varying voltage --perhaps current off a circuit with multiple fan speed controllers, air conditioners, etc... off a shaky, third-world-quality grid-- into into an otherwise great audiophile system, and you won't be very pleased with the result (provided adequate power conditioning isn't built into the gear). Feed a perfect signal into an average system, and you'll be surprised at how much the sound can improve.
NOW FOR THE USUAL SUSPECTS (and a few other thoughts...):
As for the system itself, actually, every element is critical. Just try removing any one part, even the thinnest power cord or interconnect or speaker connector, or just one tiny fuse, and wait for the electrons to jump through the air on their own, instead. Just see what happens to your sound --it disappears!
If you are asking "where should I start to upgrade, to provide the greatest improvement in my system's sound?", the two MOST COMMON areas that need to be made as good as you can get them, are the two transducers at either end of the system that Tom Brennan mentioned: Your TT's cartridge/tonearm system (and to a fair degree the TT, including plinth/base they are attached to, since all of these interact as a system) at the source end, and the speakers at the other end.
Significant upgrades to either of these will almost certainly make the biggest, most obvious improvement in your system's sound. Why? Because these are almost always the "weakest link", and to make them truly perform well is a challenging and expensive design and engineering challenge. These items usually add the most "coloration" and "distortion" to the music.
Which is more important -the source or the speakers? This is a complex issue which --despite many claims to the contrary-- probably has no absolute and final answer. For YOUR system, in YOUR environment, with YOUR music, ask yourself which one is the weakest link?
Personally, I started with great speakers, and only much later got a truly good source (still subject to further upgrades!), and I'm glad I did it that way, but over time it probably would have worked just as well the other way around!
Why? Because without very good speakers, you cannot really hear what is being fed to them, anyway. A spectacular source signal still sounds mediocre through mediocre speakers. Yet without a good source, your speakers can only reveal the limitations of the source, and let you hear the flaws, and not show you what isn't there in the first place. You need BOTH to be good -with nothing detrimental in between-- to achieve anything close to real "sonic bliss".
One of the ironies of this whole subject is that the closer your system gets to being truly high-end, very revealing, transparent and "audiophile", the MORE EACH LITTLE THING MATTERS. In a truly outstanding, near state-of-the-art system, the effect of replacing one single jumper wire on the back of a speaker can make a significant, audible difference. [I've heard this first-hand, and posted about it here.]
But that same change would be lost, inaudible, in a system that wasn't already very good, and consistently so throughout most of the audio chain. One truly bad "weak link" that distorts, adds noise, causes information to drop out, etc... will limit the performance of the entire system. You cannot replace sonic information, once it has been lost, at any step in the chain.
Another consideration emerges here, that of "synergy" between components. What is it, really? In most cases, it means using the colorations and distortions of one component to offset the opposing colorations and distortions of another component! If your digital source sounds too "shrill", use a speaker with rolled-off highs to eliminate the harshness on top, for example. The problem with this is that you simultaneously eliminate some of the high-end information, and with that some of the sound stage and realism disappears, gone forever. [Another aspect of synergy that is sometimes ignored to some detriment is matching impedances within appropriate/compatible ranges. This issue is especially important at the source end of an analogue system, especially if you use LOMC cartridges. Most other components (eg, preamps and power amps) are close enough for this not to be much of an issue.]
What if you then take the opposite tack, and try to make your system as revealing and accurate as possible? Then, on the best, world-class recordings, you will hear sublime things... and on every other recording you own, you will hear all the sonic flaws and warts and poor mixing and mastering decisions, etc... and won't be able to enjoy the music as well. My personal answer to this is to have one revealing system for the best recordings, and a second, more forgiving one, for poorer-quality source recordings. Another approach might be to make an ultra-revealing system first, then selectively introduce elements (perhaps a tube buffer here, an EQ adjustment there) that make it more forgiving and more "musical", up the point where the trade-offs made suit your personal tastes and listening habits/preferences.
Along the path to seeking sonic perfection, improvements that are significant may actually seem minor, because some other inferior component elsewhere in the chain prevents you from hearing their real impact. This is a second reason why it is so important to have truly good transducers at the ends: you cannot hear the effects of anything if you don't have a good signal to begin with, or if your speakers aren't letting you hear everthing that is (or isn't) there.
So keep upgrading where and when you can, keep on tweaking and keep on testing (for as long as your interest and patience hold out) and keep on upgrading. You may sometimes find that one component seems to make a "great leap forward" in your system's performance, but perhaps it is just eliminating a bottleneck point and allowing the full extent of other improvements to be heard.
In a similar vein, as the saying goes "God lies in the details." Every little improvement you make has a contributory effect, and sometimes many small improvements can cumulatively add up to a very significant improvement. For example, if you haven't done much tweaking to your system (and MOST people haven't!), go through your system and DeOxit all contacts, including the power-socket connections and fuse connectors, etc... Arrange all your power cables, interconnects, and speaker wires to keep them spaced apart as much as possible, and crossing at 90 degrees (and separated by some distance) if they absolutely must cross. Add isolation (or coupling, as appropriate) under each component, and add mass/weight and damping where appropriate. Add shielding where appropriate. etc... etc... Then listen again to your system. Similarly, make sure your speaker placement is optimal, and try "treating" your room (with things like bass traps). Listen again. None of these things need be expensive, or even very difficult to do.
The cumulative effect of such small things can be massive and dramatic. Why? Much of the "magic" that we hear in really good systems comes from our ability to hear tiny, clear, discrete detailed bits of sonic information. Unblurred, unsmeared, un-interfered-with, clearly-reproduced information. Every single thing we do that reduces vibration, clears out the roadblocks of oxidative resistance, reduces interference (whether from outside our gear or between parts of it), and allows a cleaner transmission of the original signal through the system and up to our ears, helps that detail to fully come through so our brains can interpret and decode it back into an impression of the original live performance.
Along these lines, if you are using vintage gear with 20 or 30-year old electrolytic capacitors and other poorly-aging components (like carbon resistors that can grow "noisy" as they age), that is probably the single biggest "bottleneck" in your entire system. Each of those poor components subtracts a little bit from the sonic potential of your system's performance. It may be a much wiser expenditure to get your gear properly overhauled by a really good tech, than to buy another "upgrade".
This whole area of the hobby is a controversial subject, often because people lose sight of the big picture, while focusing on the small, single changes. Try to maintain the overall perspective and not be fooled by what you THINK you are hearing in the first instance. We are all influenced by our own experiences. If you replaced your speakers and the whole system was transformed, you'll believe that speakers are most important. If you replace your turntable and your system is likewise transformed, you'll believe that the source is most important. But perhaps in the first instance, the speakers were the weakest link, and the source wasn't so bad, or in the second one, the source had been the weakest link. Or perhaps you are inadvertently achieving some kind of better synergy with the substitution, and that is the main reason for the big improvement.
It is this very complexity, and the nearly-infinite number of possible variations in set-ups/systems/approaches that are possible, that keeps this hobby so fascinating and rewarding. Fortunately, there are many roads to the end of the rainbow, and many different pots of gold for us all to savor and enjoy along the way.
I've still left out a few major thoughts and considerations related to this topic, but this has already become another overly-long post, so I'll stop here.
Some folks have a LOT of time, clearly.
I just switch the set up on, put on what I like to hear, crank it up and get a beer from the fridge..... That's as involved as my thought process gets...
krowmagnum
Compulsive speaker freak
1. Luck
2. Knowledge
3. Wallet thickness
This may not be the same for everyone but it seems true for me.
2. Knowledge
3. Wallet thickness
This may not be the same for everyone but it seems true for me.
Well (Source or player
"Garbage in, garbage out") that will go to the top of my list there is no good sound out of a bad source, on the other hand cable maybe not so important if you are comparing good cable, I use to believe that cable do not matter , not any more , specially hi frequencies will suffers with bad cable
"Garbage in, garbage out") that will go to the top of my list there is no good sound out of a bad source, on the other hand cable maybe not so important if you are comparing good cable, I use to believe that cable do not matter , not any more , specially hi frequencies will suffers with bad cable
marc mc
Super Member
It's called mainstream
Most of us are looking for a little bit more.Arkay, thanks for your excellent!!! post. :thmbsp:
marc mc
henkuk
Active Member
It's called mainstream
Arkay, thanks for your excellent!!! post. :thmbsp:
marc mc
Sure, I might be mainstream in my needs when it comes to Hi-Fi.
To be honest, I love my setup and it has travelled with me over 4 continents during the house moves. However, to over-analyse the point as per the post I highlighted is something I see a lot in 'audiophiles'. In my view, it's like calling masturbation sex...
Just buy what you can afford, sounds good and are happy with. From there, crank up the music, get laid, get drunk, go out with your friends etc.
In short, live as life is too short to spend too much time worrying about tiny details in cables etc.....
Which just makes me realise, maybe I should not read these posts....
Judging by the amount of AK forum members who are on the SPEAKER forum, sometimes at a 2-3 times ratio versus the other forums, I would have to say that speakers have the most impact on the overall sound on the vast majority of stereo setups. Just my observation. YMMV.
marc mc
Super Member
Speakers first has always been a lanslide majority in audio for the simple reason that it's the cheapest way to get a sound you like. You can have a total mess upstream and still get a sound you like. And today this is more true than ever. With the Boomers downsizing speakers that have not seen the light of day for 20-30 years are showing up in garage sales and thrift stores. But have a friend over that owns a great TT and he will smile and say politey "Oh...Uhm...it..uhm...sounds good"
But the point Linn made 30 years ago will never change, spend a day listening to an LP12 and then see what you think. But I doubt many of the speaker guys here have. As a matter of fact I could probably say the same thing about the turntable forum guys.
marc mc
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I keep reading over and over this assumption that those of us who believe in the importance of source don't care about speakers. This couldn't be farther from the truth! Nobody is saying that speakers have no impact, of course they do. They have to be very good to not lose all that information carefully extracted by the source components. But any flaw in the beginning of the chain is not going to be fixed by great speakers. In fact, better speakers will reveal the flaws even more. A good source and good speakers go hand in hand.
We're on a hi-fi forum, so of course a lot of us are going to be obsessed with reaching farther than the mainstream. Why would we be on this forum if we weren't trying to improve our systems by learning and exchanging ideas and opinions? It's great that you love your system, and a lot of us are just trying to do the same. I've learned much here by listening to people who know a lot more about this than I, and I've never enjoyed my stereo more than I do now. Not sure why that is 'masturbation'.
The opposite is also true. Just because someone feels that speakers make the biggest impact, that doesn't mean that they don't have, or appreciate, a top notch source.
It all has to work together. Why do I feel a Rodney King quote coming on?
doucanoe
Registered Audio Abuser
True, true.
Just holding an "order of importance" opinion does not mean that the individual has no regard for the other. Those extremes don't exist here.
RC
ron-c
Addicted Member
The effect of your room's dimensions and speaker placement in the same will swamp all other factors. It is common for a nicely designed speaker to have swings of 10 to 20 dB in the response when placed in a room. To understand this just take your speakers outside and arrange them with a chair like they are in your room and listen. You will now hear their designed free field response.
Since the room is at least 40% of the sound quality this is the most important. You can treat the room for reverberation, move the walls or use electronic room correction to fix the problems.
Thanks,
Ron-C
Since the room is at least 40% of the sound quality this is the most important. You can treat the room for reverberation, move the walls or use electronic room correction to fix the problems.
Thanks,
Ron-C
True, very true. I'm surprised there aren't more "whole system is important" responses, to be honest. I guess that's where I land, but since I believe the source is extremely important, and I end 'arguing' on that side.
I guess there could be the position that the thing that impacts sound quality the most is "whatever your weak link is." So if your source or speakers aren't up to the quality of each other, than the weaker one actually impacts sound more.
AngelRa
Active Member
I do not agree that the ends are source and speaker, for me is source and room. I am getting the idea that many members do not understand the intricate relationship between the speakers and the room.
Here is some babbling:
Sound coming out of the speakers bounce off the walls and are all added back to the original sound. From mid to highs, any reflection of sound that is under 0.6 second is perceived as smearing. Later reflections are perceived as echo. At low frequencies the effects of the room are even more delicate. The room resonates to the bass and create what is called "room modes" It can change the bass so much as to completely mood out. Room modes are resonant peaks that makes some particular tones to blow out of proportion while in between frequencies are attenuated or canceled. All rooms have all the mentioned problems, the question is how much of it. Plain walls for sure will smear mids and highs. Room modes are based on room dimensions.
I was looking at the photos of member systems and only found a couple with visible room treatments. That means there is a lot of education needed, at least if true hi-fi is the goal.
Most of my reading is from "The master handbook of acoustics" and the JBL professional cinema manual. Good companies to check out are Auralex, Sonex, and RPG.
Here is some babbling:
Sound coming out of the speakers bounce off the walls and are all added back to the original sound. From mid to highs, any reflection of sound that is under 0.6 second is perceived as smearing. Later reflections are perceived as echo. At low frequencies the effects of the room are even more delicate. The room resonates to the bass and create what is called "room modes" It can change the bass so much as to completely mood out. Room modes are resonant peaks that makes some particular tones to blow out of proportion while in between frequencies are attenuated or canceled. All rooms have all the mentioned problems, the question is how much of it. Plain walls for sure will smear mids and highs. Room modes are based on room dimensions.
I was looking at the photos of member systems and only found a couple with visible room treatments. That means there is a lot of education needed, at least if true hi-fi is the goal.
Most of my reading is from "The master handbook of acoustics" and the JBL professional cinema manual. Good companies to check out are Auralex, Sonex, and RPG.
marc mc
Super Member
I agree the room plays a role. But I have mucked around with treatments and I even had 6 ACS bass traps for a while. The truth is I never heard a bit of difference. It wasn't better or worse it was the same. I find as long as you stay away from side walls and set things up on the long wall it's fine.
My garage system allows me room to stretch big speakers legs. High ceiling and uneven surfaces everywhere. Indoors I use the nearfield to take the room out of the equation. But to say that I can make an upgrade that equals a componant change with random wall treatments and Bass traps. Well let's just say I've tried and couldn't tell the difference.
If I'm at a buddies and he is unhappy with the sound of his system I think his $100 tt is a far bigger source of the problem than his room.
marc mc
AngelRa
Active Member
The fact that you did not got an improvement when using room acoustic products only shows that you did not studied your room acoustic issues. To start, you may not even need them.
Do you know the frequency of your room modes? What about the severity?
Most people think that room treatment is like buying the stereo itself, simple and easy, but it is not. Also, there is no way to take the room out of the equation no matter how close you sit.
AngelRa
Active Member
Part of this is from another thread:
There is plenty of reliable information on the web.
"The single most important and influential link in the audio reproduction chain is also the least understood and most neglected - the listening room itself." - Galen Carol Audio
"the acoustics of a recording or listening room are arguably more important than almost anything else!" - Ethan Winer
Reliable acoustics web sites:
http://www.auralex.com/
http://www.sonex-online.com/
http://www.rpginc.com/
http://www.acousticsciences.com/
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Room_acoustics.html
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/My_Mu...all_treatments
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/how...acoustics.html
Good read:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
MASTER HANDBOOK OF ACOUSTICS
There is plenty of reliable information on the web.
"The single most important and influential link in the audio reproduction chain is also the least understood and most neglected - the listening room itself." - Galen Carol Audio
"the acoustics of a recording or listening room are arguably more important than almost anything else!" - Ethan Winer
Reliable acoustics web sites:
http://www.auralex.com/
http://www.sonex-online.com/
http://www.rpginc.com/
http://www.acousticsciences.com/
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Room_acoustics.html
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/My_Mu...all_treatments
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/how...acoustics.html
Good read:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
MASTER HANDBOOK OF ACOUSTICS
ron-c
Addicted Member
Room treatments control reverb time. Electronic room correction can address the shape of the room and open up better speaker placement. I know this is a big claim for many but once you use this you will appreciate it.
The sad fact is most well designed speakers will have room induced frequency response swings of 10 to 20 dB in most rooms. These room aberrations swamp all other sound quality factors in a system.
Thanks,
Ron-C
The sad fact is most well designed speakers will have room induced frequency response swings of 10 to 20 dB in most rooms. These room aberrations swamp all other sound quality factors in a system.
Thanks,
Ron-C