Hey Marc, could I get a clarification of terminology from you? You continually talk about "source first" and "speaker first" camps. However, you also say that most of the "source first" guys have better speakers than the "speaker first" guys. I'm wondering what you actually mean by "source first".
Do you mean that the source is the most important part of the chain and will trump having lower quality stuff downstream? If so, this seems to be contradicted by the "source first" guys having the highest of high end speakers. If the source were the only component that really mattered there wouldn't be any need for those speakers.
Ray it's not about it trumping everything downstream. But rather it is the source of the stream and therefore must be as pure as possible. For vinyl that means getting the enormous amount of info that is in those grooves out. And trust me great tables can do that. But just like any movement of the speaker box while playing sound cancels out sound. The mechanics of turntables provide extraction without addition or smearing on a micro level.
The source first thinking says, nothing can make up for what was never extracted or lost at the source.
Or do you mean that these folks (and you) start with a superb source and then work downstream to put together a chain of components worthy of the source?
Exactly. Get the source right. It allows everything after it to at least play to its potential. And Linn proved again and again that a pair of decent speakers at their potential was more enjoyable than a pair of better speakers with a limited source.
It is unnoticed or ignored but I have said several times on these threads that I run the same arm / cart combo on two very good tables and the better table of the two is far better. And this becomes more apparent as the volume goes up. And that is usually overlooked. But monster tables can be played at much louder volumes with far better performance because the mechanics of these tables is superior and it is only the music that is getting louder and not the "table" itself.
You've stated several times that you're "source first" but you seem to have a real bias against the "speaker first" crew. You seem to say that all they do is sit around and upgrade speakers without regard to the source. If the first explanation above is what you think of as "source first" then I suppose this definition of "speaker first" would fit. However, if you are working from the second definition of "source first" then it seems you're unfairly condemning the "speaker first" guys. It would seem that, working from the 2nd definition, a "speaker first" guy would start with a superb pair of speakers and then work backwards to feed it the best signal possible and could conceivably come up with the exact same system as a "source first" approach.
I hear what your saying but my answer is based in experience not theory. Ray IME the speaker first crowd usually believes that the sources are all pretty much the same and the gains at the source are therfore small in comparison to speakers. IMO it's not the amount or size of the difference but the importance of it that is at work. Because source first guys have spent most of their time and money improving the source they listen "past" the speakers upstream. While speaker first guys listen to the "speakers" themselves and focus on the power they get and their position in the room.
Said a different way source first guys keep upgrading the source and therefore listen to thier gear to hear those source upgrades. Which over time become the standard they get used to. Any step back is many times more obvious than a step forward to them.
While speaker guys change speakers and amp/speaker combos looking for the end result they like. To them the sound they hear originates at the speakers.
If a guy that uses a budget turntable could take my, Heybook/Rega/Clearaudio home for a month and play his own records. And then hook their budget table back up they would understand everything I've said in this thread in 1 song.
Now consider the fact that the Heybook on my second system is considered a budget table to most source first guys I know!
marc mc
