What Solid State Gear Sounds Most Like Tubes?
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Brian
An Old Geezer
The autoformer is not the same as the transformer used in a tube output. I love the MC250; a GREAT amp and I'm truly amazed that anyone would ever sell 1.
During the tube era, I was strictly Marantz all the way. I had Mc units come and go but they were lacking the detail and were too veiled in relation to the Marantz, and the bass too flabby; save the MC225. I think persons perceptions of vintage tube sound is between the voicing of these lines, possibly closer to the McIntosh is not thrilled with tube and closer to Marantz if impressed. When Marantz came out with their ss line, the 18 (and later 19) along the the 7t, 20 and 15 showed that the company could bring out some impressive SS designs but like almost any new technology going up against older more refined and mature technologies it was no contest. When Mc brought out their ss line, great attention had been paid to make sure it actually sounded excellent and as close as possible to their tube sound. The result was and is to me about the best as can be had and I switched from being anti-McIntosh. Probably no one remembers the days when there were vocal McIntosh/Marantz camps and debates and it was very vocal.
As for the 1700 reliability issue; I'll only say it is more reliable than most but like ANY piece of its age will need tlc. You are talking about units easily 10 years older than what most persons are running as vintage.
During the tube era, I was strictly Marantz all the way. I had Mc units come and go but they were lacking the detail and were too veiled in relation to the Marantz, and the bass too flabby; save the MC225. I think persons perceptions of vintage tube sound is between the voicing of these lines, possibly closer to the McIntosh is not thrilled with tube and closer to Marantz if impressed. When Marantz came out with their ss line, the 18 (and later 19) along the the 7t, 20 and 15 showed that the company could bring out some impressive SS designs but like almost any new technology going up against older more refined and mature technologies it was no contest. When Mc brought out their ss line, great attention had been paid to make sure it actually sounded excellent and as close as possible to their tube sound. The result was and is to me about the best as can be had and I switched from being anti-McIntosh. Probably no one remembers the days when there were vocal McIntosh/Marantz camps and debates and it was very vocal.
As for the 1700 reliability issue; I'll only say it is more reliable than most but like ANY piece of its age will need tlc. You are talking about units easily 10 years older than what most persons are running as vintage.
reggaenaut
Addicted Member
I had a 1700 for about three years trouble free. I got rid of it after acquiring and being exposed to to the Sony 6060f. I sure would like to hear the Sony 6200. From the threads on this site 6200 is a step up on the 6060.
alexkerhead
To High For Infinity
Well, I officially am into tubes as of a few days ago, so i can officially agree, no SS sounds like tubes.
The real deal(tubes) is a much more comfortable sound than any SS I have ever heard.
The real deal(tubes) is a much more comfortable sound than any SS I have ever heard.
All you need to do now is find some Marantz tube gear. 
(Got kilobucks?)
(Got kilobucks?)
alexkerhead
To High For Infinity
I would love some monoblocks and a paragon.luvvinvinyl said:All you need to do now is find some Marantz tube gear.
(Got kilobucks?)
My plan it to add enough onto the mortgage when I goto buy a house to grab a paragon and a set of marantz monoblocks and a tube pre for them.
CarlV
Lunatic Member
My saving grace is that I never have allowed myself to pay even one pennyalexkerhead said:My plan it to add enough onto the mortgage when I goto buy a house to grab a paragon and a set of marantz monoblocks and a tube pre for them.
in interest fees for non essential things like audio gear. :yes:
Carl
alexkerhead
To High For Infinity
I really have no choice, it would take 10 years to save for what I want.CarlV said:
By then, my savings wouldn't even scratch the value.
another good site with lots of info on tubes is www.firebottle/ampage.com
Unda Maris
Mr. V-FET
Let´s address it a little bit more technical:
Brian, what you wrote about the Sony STR-6060F is absolutely true, it lets you hear the music for hours without any fatigue effects and it sounds like tube gear. I don´t know the exact reason, but it is obviously related to the use of some germanium transistors, completely asymmetrical circuitry and capacitor coupling of the speaker outputs, which provokes lot´s of low and even order distortions, which are so "sweet".
I´m really wondering, why here nobody mentioned V-Fet amplifiers to sound more like tube gear. Their output devices (and often the drivers, too) are electrically nothing else than high mutual conductance, low to medium miu SS triodes.
So you could call them sweet and warm sounding, cold triodes ...
Take a Yamaha B-1, it contains seven V-Fets per channel in four stages. The rest of the signal chain is J-Fets. A part of the frontend circuitry is rather non symmetrical, single ended.
Since my new B-1 is still in repair, I can´t say if it sounds like a tube amplifier, but everybody, who ever heard it, said to me, that it has it´s unique, own character compared to all other SS amplifiers. That could be the sound of a "better than the original " tube amplifier.
Brian, what you wrote about the Sony STR-6060F is absolutely true, it lets you hear the music for hours without any fatigue effects and it sounds like tube gear. I don´t know the exact reason, but it is obviously related to the use of some germanium transistors, completely asymmetrical circuitry and capacitor coupling of the speaker outputs, which provokes lot´s of low and even order distortions, which are so "sweet".
I´m really wondering, why here nobody mentioned V-Fet amplifiers to sound more like tube gear. Their output devices (and often the drivers, too) are electrically nothing else than high mutual conductance, low to medium miu SS triodes.
So you could call them sweet and warm sounding, cold triodes ...
Take a Yamaha B-1, it contains seven V-Fets per channel in four stages. The rest of the signal chain is J-Fets. A part of the frontend circuitry is rather non symmetrical, single ended.
Since my new B-1 is still in repair, I can´t say if it sounds like a tube amplifier, but everybody, who ever heard it, said to me, that it has it´s unique, own character compared to all other SS amplifiers. That could be the sound of a "better than the original " tube amplifier.
alexkerhead
To High For Infinity
My parents have always instilled responsibility in me. I can't say I have been to responsible in the past, but I am getting better with money.CarlV said:Good to see you want to buy a house. Best move you can make with regards to your future.
Carl
I am really looking forward to owning a home. I have 1.5 years of college left, and plan to work 6 months before I move out.
The paragon with monoblocks is a dream, I will probably end up building a kit and some speakers myself, but I can dream.
I just cannot justify adding $25K on a mortgage for that.
Brian
An Old Geezer
Hey, I just learned the new TOTL McIntosh preamp is ONLY $17K. I wouldn't spend that much on a car. My first house was only $21K and my 2nd $48 and I lived in it until I moved to Toronto. Ya all better grab your Mc units now as I see the prices going up as a result.
As for the V-FET, my experience has been that amps based on them did not typically have the fatigue I usually experience with many SS designs and also tends to be a bit smoother (for lack of a better phrase) something I tend to identify with good more modern tube amps but not necessarily with the typical or what seems to be the perception as to what vintage sounds like.
My experience with J-FET based preamps have always been positive, especially the Dennison unit that probably was about the only preamp I could live with that was termed a straight wire with gain design but did not in reality strip away much of the content as actually so many did.
I think the production period using these devises was simply too short and their numbers too few to really impact the industry.
As for the 6060, I can't explain the technical reason for sounding so good. Then again I can't explain many things in life, I simply accept them.
As for the V-FET, my experience has been that amps based on them did not typically have the fatigue I usually experience with many SS designs and also tends to be a bit smoother (for lack of a better phrase) something I tend to identify with good more modern tube amps but not necessarily with the typical or what seems to be the perception as to what vintage sounds like.
My experience with J-FET based preamps have always been positive, especially the Dennison unit that probably was about the only preamp I could live with that was termed a straight wire with gain design but did not in reality strip away much of the content as actually so many did.
I think the production period using these devises was simply too short and their numbers too few to really impact the industry.
As for the 6060, I can't explain the technical reason for sounding so good. Then again I can't explain many things in life, I simply accept them.
lorne
Sonic Lizard
Not tubey and yet tubey anyway
grateful wrote
I'd be happy sticking with SS, but my experience suggests that tubes in combination with SS often makes a very happy marriage. This is far from a conclusive report, but rather a gesture to say I think that there is a lot in what you say.
On older, BETTER SS gear, I would tentatively suggest that recapping will sometimes provide the sound that tube admirers may be looking for in SS amps. That clean space and air is more likely to come out. Others may complain that new caps changed their amp into a screamer. Whatever, this approach is currently working for me on my Trio L-05M mono amps — a great amp that was nonetheless described by the resellers (when I bought them) as a bit hard and harsh. A complement of mostly off-the-shelf caps has made a pleasant difference that again tube admirers might like to hear. (BTW - I retained the beer-can sized filters, and the new caps were as close to stock values in both uF and VDC as I could find. )
So in answer to the original thread question, I'd suggest playing with parts in an older SS amp, if that's your thing. And perhaps put a tube pre-amp in there. Elekit has a kit for a simple one that runs about $300. Sorry, I've not heard it. For power, you might consider a Sansui that can accept a pre amp 'in' signal. I've used tubes in conjunction with Sansui and Pioneer split integrated amps to good effect. One thing to remember about Sansui is that they were originally transformer makers. Where iron is a contributing factor — power supply in SS gear — Sansui has the tradition and legacy behind it. Snag an old Sansui for $100 and try a few things.
The tertiary models put out by Sansui before their collapse were perhaps ambitious attempts to acheive what you may be looking for. At least that is their reputation, and it stands up today here in Japan where they are admired and where they retain their value. They are relatively rare finds where the audio mob reveres tubes in almost cultist dedication. They were masterpieces, and I should have bought one.
grateful wrote
I am no authority on the comparative technology, but I gotta say that I agree with what you say. I take my Melos pre amp as an example: I have a lot of BAD things to say about this amp, but in a blind test I don't think that informed listeners would leap on the fact that they were listening to tubes. It has deficiencies, rather than additive sonic signatures that are commonly associated with tubes. It does take some of the glare and shrillness out of Red Book, but then so does my 35 year old AR integrated SS amp. Even on vinyl, with the sound cooking the neigbours house paint, I don't get the tubey 'sign' flashing.
I'd be happy sticking with SS, but my experience suggests that tubes in combination with SS often makes a very happy marriage. This is far from a conclusive report, but rather a gesture to say I think that there is a lot in what you say.
On older, BETTER SS gear, I would tentatively suggest that recapping will sometimes provide the sound that tube admirers may be looking for in SS amps. That clean space and air is more likely to come out. Others may complain that new caps changed their amp into a screamer. Whatever, this approach is currently working for me on my Trio L-05M mono amps — a great amp that was nonetheless described by the resellers (when I bought them) as a bit hard and harsh. A complement of mostly off-the-shelf caps has made a pleasant difference that again tube admirers might like to hear. (BTW - I retained the beer-can sized filters, and the new caps were as close to stock values in both uF and VDC as I could find. )
So in answer to the original thread question, I'd suggest playing with parts in an older SS amp, if that's your thing. And perhaps put a tube pre-amp in there. Elekit has a kit for a simple one that runs about $300. Sorry, I've not heard it. For power, you might consider a Sansui that can accept a pre amp 'in' signal. I've used tubes in conjunction with Sansui and Pioneer split integrated amps to good effect. One thing to remember about Sansui is that they were originally transformer makers. Where iron is a contributing factor — power supply in SS gear — Sansui has the tradition and legacy behind it. Snag an old Sansui for $100 and try a few things.
The tertiary models put out by Sansui before their collapse were perhaps ambitious attempts to acheive what you may be looking for. At least that is their reputation, and it stands up today here in Japan where they are admired and where they retain their value. They are relatively rare finds where the audio mob reveres tubes in almost cultist dedication. They were masterpieces, and I should have bought one.
vintage amp
Vintage Amp
You might consider a Threshold 400a After a recap it will be reliable.
Soft on the bottom and smooth tube like highs in a solid state design.
Soft on the bottom and smooth tube like highs in a solid state design.
