What to power Renaissance 80's with?!?!

[HiFiAaron]

I have a pair of Renaissance 80's and was uncertain weather to keep them or not. But after listening to them many times the hunt for a better amplifier begins.

I'm currently using a Samson s1000 amp and a Yamaha RX-V663 receiver as a preamp to power them. I am pretty satisfied with the the Yamaha functioning as my preamp for now but may be looking into something different in the future. The speakers sound great with this setup but they could sound much better with a better amp. The amp is pretty basic and not really matched well for the speakers as they revile all imperfections.

Ive been looking at amps but I am not really sure where to go. I would like it to have low distortion and preferably a wider frequency range than 20hz-20khz as the Infinity claims the Renaissance 80's go up to 45khz! I don't know how much you can hear that difference but i would sure like to. Also these are 4ohm speakers known to drop as low as 3.3ohm and are considered amp killers in some situations so I need something with a good supply of power. the minimum power handling for the speakers is 75watt and the max is 300watt each. I would like it to be $1000 US or less for the amp. I like vintage gear so age isn't an issue.

What are your amp suggestions? (cheaper the better. I'm not cheap but I'm also not rich)
How much would I benefit from a different preamp?

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[SoCal Sam]

I'm not sure I would put down your Samson that hard. It has a toroidal transformer and six pairs of output transistors per channel. The internal layout is not that different from say a Bryston 4b. I'm not saying there is not something in the audio grease that buyers pay thousands extra for but we are talking about energy amplification and delivery. The heavy metal in pro audio delivers. I have not heard a Samson but I have owned various Crown, Yamaha, JBL, and QSC pro amps and found them to have objective signal accuracy which translates to crystal clear sound. I've seen my humble Crown XLS-202 on the scope and it passes perfect square waves 20Hz-20kHz which means that is can pass credible signal in the sub and ultra sonic ranges. As far as amplification goes, IMO you are in good shape.

Yamaha makes some very good AV receivers but that is the problem here. A separate preamp will almost always be better than a receiver preamp. And a stereo preamp is preferable over an AV preamp for stereo playback. Remote control and digital tuner are super convenient but you are looking for sound quality so some trade off is needed. To hear what your V663 is doing to your signal, run a CDP directly into your S1000 using the gain controls Then run it through the V663. You may be very surprised at how much coloration a preamp adds.

 

[HiFiAaron]

I'm not sure I would put down your Samson that hard. It has a toroidal transformer and six pairs of output transistors per channel. The internal layout is not that different from say a Bryston 4b. I'm not saying there is not something in the audio grease that buyers pay thousands extra for but we are talking about energy amplification and delivery. The heavy metal in pro audio delivers. I have not heard a Samson but I have owned various Crown, Yamaha, JBL, and QSC pro amps and found them to have objective signal accuracy which translates to crystal clear sound. I've seen my humble Crown XLS-202 on the scope and it passes perfect square waves 20Hz-20kHz which means that is can pass credible signal in the sub and ultra sonic ranges. As far as amplification goes, IMO you are in good shape.

Yamaha makes some very good AV receivers but that is the problem here. A separate preamp will almost always be better than a receiver preamp. And a stereo preamp is preferable over an AV preamp for stereo playback. Remote control and digital tuner are super convenient but you are looking for sound quality so some trade off is needed. To hear what your V663 is doing to your signal, run a CDP directly into your S1000 using the gain controls Then run it through the V663. You may be very surprised at how much coloration a preamp adds.

It does sound very good the way it is now and maybe i don't need a different amp?? I am curious if I would be able to hear another 25khz on the top if I had it. It does sound quite clear and what you say makes sense. I guess it just makes me wonder when i see these amps rated at .005 - .06 THD it makes me wonder if I would hear the difference. I want to try hooking up my cd player to the amp and use the gain controls to hear the sound without the Yamaha but I am concerned, as i only use about a quarter of the amps power as is and the speakers get very loud, that it may be too loud for the speaker even all the way down. The gain controls have notches rather than a smooth adjustment so i don't know what the jump from all the way down to one notch up will be. I will have to play with it a little. As far as preamps are concerned what would you all advise I don't think my Yamaha is doing a bad job but I would not be opposed to putting something with more potential there. do they have preamps that do digital conversion or would I have to switch my digital stuff to analog and use a source switcher? Sorry if these are noobish questions I just have been satisfied with the gear at hand for some time until these ren 80s came along now I have an itch all the sudden.

 

[SoCal Sam]

It does sound very good the way it is now and maybe i don't need a different amp?? I am curious if I would be able to hear another 25khz on the top if I had it. It does sound quite clear and what you say makes sense. I guess it just makes me wonder when i see these amps rated at .005 - .06 THD it makes me wonder if I would hear the difference. I want to try hooking up my cd player to the amp and use the gain controls to hear the sound without the Yamaha but I am concerned, as i only use about a quarter of the amps power as is and the speakers get very loud, that it may be too loud for the speaker even all the way down. The gain controls have notches rather than a smooth adjustment so i don't know what the jump from all the way down to one notch up will be. I will have to play with it a little. As far as preamps are concerned what would you all advise I don't think my Yamaha is doing a bad job but I would not be opposed to putting something with more potential there. do they have preamps that do digital conversion or would I have to switch my digital stuff to analog and use a source switcher? Sorry if these are noobish questions I just have been satisfied with the gear at hand for some time until these ren 80s came along now I have an itch all the sudden.

Caution is always a good idea. If you have concerns with trying CD direct, play a pair of test speakers so you know what the Samson gain control is doing. The purpose of going CD direct is to shorten the signal path and to hear as transparent a signal as is possible with your gear. IMO, a good preamp should add nothing to the signal so what the CD direct signature should be the reference for your preamp search. My Yamaha RX-777 stereo receiver has Pure Amp and CD Direct modes which takes most of the preamp with the exception of the volume control out of the signal path. Your RX-V663 may have these settings.

 

[HiFiAaron]

Yes i did cd direct through my buddies large jbl pa speakers to get a feel for the gain controls. I only listened to In The Flesh by Pink Floyd from the first cd of The Wall. All the way down is nothing on the gain and it has fairly gradual control. One channel seems slightly louder but i think that is because one speaker cable is much longer than the other but I'm used to that and just adjust the gain levels accordingly. Through the JBL's I heard a faint crackling at mid to low volume levels occasionally in the sound but have not heard these JBL's much and did not know what to expect as far as sound quality. I hooked the amp up to the Infinity's and started low on the same song and the crackle was still there but more audible through the Infinity's at low level. I didn't listen to any other song as I know the sound I'm hearing is not in the recording. I didn't go any further, as it got late. So later today I will hook up the JBL's and track down where the crackle is coming from. I have other CD players and interconnects to try so ill do that first but if all else fails my buddy has a samson s700 I can try to make sure its not coming from the amp itself. As far as the Yamaha is concerned it does have pure direct mode which only passes the signal past the volume nob shuts down the display and everything else, but when its in this mode it only sends signal to the front L&R speaker outputs and not to the level line output. I could run it off the front L&R but I imagine I would have more gain than desirable at that point.

 

[Sandstrom]

I recently had a Bryston 4B in rotation with Ren 80s and it was a great combo, no idea how it would compare with your Samson though. I don't think you will be able to hear above 25kHz unless you are part canine

 

[HiFiAaron]

I recently had a Bryston 4B in rotation with Ren 80s and it was a great combo, no idea how it would compare with your Samson though.

The bryston 4b seems to be a very nice amplifier. it seems there have been many changes to it throughout the years but 20yr warranty wowsers, cant go wrong there. thanks for the input. What were you using for a pre amp?

I don't think you will be able to hear above 25kHz unless you are part canine

Well I don't want my dog to be short changed just cause I cant hear it, haha. Just kidding, tha'ts sort of what i figured thank you.

 

[Sandstrom]

The bryston 4b seems to be a very nice amplifier. it seems there have been many changes to it throughout the years but 20yr warranty wowsers, cant go wrong there. thanks for the input. What were you using for a pre amp?

I mostly used my Audio Research LS3, made for a nice system.

 

[HiFiAaron]

The purpose of going CD direct is to shorten the signal path and to hear as transparent a signal as is possible with your gear. IMO, a good preamp should add nothing to the signal so what the CD direct signature should be the reference for your preamp search

OK, so I switched out the CD player and the seemingly new crackle is gone from the system. The sound is crystal clear with my other cd player hooked up straight to the amp. These speakers can just suck you into hours of listening. Thank you for the advise of hooking up the cd player direct the difference without the Yamaha is very subtle but there. I think you may have convinced me to stick with what I have for now. I will be looking for a preamp sometime soon though. I looked at the Audio research lineup as Sandstorm mentioned but these are quite pricey and not exactly all over the place used. I would like something with a phono input preferably, which my Yamaha does not have. I also have heard of some people preferring to use tube preams for their ss power amps. I am going to do some research and see what I can come up with. Any suggestions to guide me in the right direction would be appreciated. Thank you both for your input!

 

[SoCal Sam]

OK, so I switched out the CD player and the seemingly new crackle is gone from the system. The sound is crystal clear with my other cd player hooked up straight to the amp. These speakers can just suck you into hours of listening. Thank you for the advise of hooking up the cd player direct the difference without the Yamaha is very subtle but there. I think you may have convinced me to stick with what I have for now. I will be looking for a preamp sometime soon though. I looked at the Audio research lineup as Sandstorm mentioned but these are quite pricey and not exactly all over the place used. I would like something with a phono input preferably, which my Yamaha does not have. I also have heard of some people preferring to use tube preams for their ss power amps. I am going to do some research and see what I can come up with. Any suggestions to guide me in the right direction would be appreciated. Thank you both for your input!

I would add that well balanced and appealing to your ears audio gear does not need compensation in the form of preamps and EQ's. The fact that you like your amp, speakers, and CDP in CD direct configuration is good news. You are on your way. I would look into a dedicated phono amp with MM/MC settings.

Despite my dislike of most preamps, tube preamps are a good tuning choice...if you do not have the option of going full tube. Take a look at Sonic Frontiers and Audio Research.

 

[HiFiAaron]

Thank you SoCal Sam! Your advice is solid. I will look into some phono amps, thank you.