What's the big deal with Black Gate Caps?

[just dave]

I heard these are supposed to be the best but why? Which audio components used them so I can be on the lookout? I'd like to hear some gear that have them.

 

[62vauxhall]

One could go broke buying "boutique capacitors" for a rebuild. I've not refurbished more than ten or twelve pieces, preamps and few power amps mostly and early on, thought getting the best of the best components would result in startlingly improved sound quality. It did not. One instance involved an American made preamp with a bit of a cult following. I posted some questions on a different forum about it and received a reply from a former supervisor who was involved in production with that same company. I expressed my intention to use "better quality" electrolytic capacitors (there were 41 in total) and was told not to bother. It was recommended just to use standard grade (I believe general purpose is the accepted description) of known good quality. Panasonic and Nichicon were named as examples. Since this person was a career audio tech, I took that advice, but including some Rubycons for availability's sake.

It was also explained that 85 degrees vs 105 degrees was irrelevant in my situation. I have since learned that in general terms, the industry has shifted towards 105 degree as entry level for the most part.

My own opinion is that über expensive parts won't hurt and might even be an asset as a selling point for resale. The way I look at it now is if the component in question did well in it's day review wise, it did so using the parts it left the factory with. As far as I'm concerned, if a more expensive capacitor would have benefitted the end product enough for it to make a sonic improvement, the designers would have done so - bean counters not withstanding.

It would take some time and I have not done so but it might be interesting to Google search "boutique capacitors" to see what opinions pop up.

 

[ferninando]

my beliefs exactly 62.

 

[bobschneider]

Black Gates supposedly had special internal construction which resulted in less distortion than a standard electrolytic cap. I used them in some restorations and was happy with the results, although I didn't do any controlled before and after tests. I also have some gear (i.e., Rotel) which used them from the factory.

Unfortunately, Black Gates went out of production 10 years ago, so any you find today may have limited remaining life, especially if they weren't properly stored. Further, they've been counterfeited quite a bit. Finally, the ones you see for sale today ask silly prices, even compared with what they originally cost new. So I'd never buy any today, especially from the auction site.

 

[sonci]

I agree on the boutique caps, but certainly those Blackgates were beautiful, triple the size of a normal cap, and practically immortals..
I also would be interested to know what gear had them installed by default.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/ acquired the remaining stock, those on ebay are fakes..

 

[just dave]

I think they were in some Yamaha cd players.

 

[whoaru99]

I think they were in some Yamaha cd players.

They were used in key locations of Yamaha M-series power amps, at least the M-40/60/80s, for sure.

 

[sonci]

I just found this thread.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/yamaha-used-black-gates.705117/
OMG, The're replacing the mighty Blackgates with modern Nichicon! What a joke!

 

[xero-D-hero]

The Parasound D/AC series used Black Gates as OE,I know my D/AC-1000's both have a whole mess of 'em in there.
So Parasound gear from the Black Gate era would be another good bet for finding a brand that may have came with them as OE.

And those D/AC-1000's are awesome sounding DACs for sure...

JM2¢ ~ HTH

Bret P.

 

[avionic]

Yamaha power amplifiers have´m.

 

[restorer-john]

Plenty of Yamaha gear came with them. Rotel had them. They weren't expensive at all. Blackgates were simply a range up from standard Rubycon blues. The major cap companies came out with magic formulas, some crazy stuff in the dielectric or electrolyte and a groovy name to give their top caps a point of difference.

Nichicon had their "Muse" range, all pretty and emerald colour
Rubycon had their "Blackgate" with a supposed graphite compound in there someplace.
Elna had their equally cool sounding "Cerafine" with some powdered ceramic chit in the cap
Now Elna have "Silmic" which has apparently some 'silk' fibres- yeah right.
Panasonic even had a model (can't recall the name) which had bamboo fibres and more chit in it to sell at top dollar.
Nichicon have "Fine Gold" and it's a really pretty looking cap which Audiophiles love.

There is nothing magical about a Black Gate. They are just another high quality Japanese electrolytic capacitor that I have found is reliable and does the job well. It is rare I find out of spec Blackgates in mid-late 80s gear.

The 'legend' around Blackgates is just Internet BS.

 

[OMGCat!]

The nice thing about audio caps is a lot of times they are larger so fit in places better on old gear than tiny new caps though my preamp had old Muse caps that were replaced with new ones that were less than half the size. At least the lead spacing was the same.
I will agree that BGs seem to age pretty well. Out of all of them I've replaced most were well within 10% of spec. Most a touch low but some a tiny bit up.

I replaced all of the BG caps in my gear with Silmic II when I went through it. Still sounds fine.
If anyone wants to mess around with Black Gates I have a handful of good pulls from a few amps. I can always box them up and send them out to someone who wants to do some measurements on them.

 

[Superampman]

Plenty of Yamaha gear came with them. Rotel had them. They weren't expensive at all. Blackgates were simply a range up from standard Rubycon blues. The major cap companies came out with magic formulas, some crazy stuff in the dielectric or electrolyte and a groovy name to give their top caps a point of difference.

Nichicon had their "Muse" range, all pretty and emerald colour
Rubycon had their "Blackgate" with a supposed graphite compound in there someplace.
Elna had their equally cool sounding "Cerafine" with some powdered ceramic chit in the cap
Now Elna have "Silmic" which has apparently some 'silk' fibres- yeah right.
Panasonic even had a model (can't recall the name) which had bamboo fibres and more chit in it to sell at top dollar.
Nichicon have "Fine Gold" and it's a really pretty looking cap which Audiophiles love.

There is nothing magical about a Black Gate. They are just another high quality Japanese electrolytic capacitor that I have found is reliable and does the job well. It is rare I find out of spec Blackgates in mid-late 80s gear.

The 'legend' around Blackgates is just Internet BS.

I came across a discussion about this on DIY and someone cited a reference in a John Curl textbook showing a LF distortion graph comparing a 10,000uf, 63v Cerafine cap to a typical audio grade one. Note was taken that the Cerafine's curve was in the non-existent range compared to very low. Conclusion was that it would be inaudible. However, I happened to still have a small cache of just those very caps! I just had a Son of Ampzilla fully rebuilt with a pair of Panasonic 12,000uf main caps. In the meantime, Mike Bettinger had just shipped a rebuilt Grandson to me and we had a good conversation about the difference I heard when I swapped out the Panasonics and popped in the Cerafines in my Son. In conclusion we agreed that the quieter backround/more intimate presentation had at least to do with the lower wattage/80wpch Son compared to the GAS500 he shipped to me 6 months earlier. I can tell you I am absolutely convinced those Cerafines made a remarkable improvement. Not Huge, but noticeable; more refined. Mike offered to have me ship him the Son in order to install the servo card as in the GAS500 free of charge to prove it doesn't suck the life out of the sq. I contended the 500 would sound much better without it. I declined. I did however decide to ship him a pair of the Cerafines by surprise which I have yet to follow through with.

Pretty, ain't they? I have only Mike's pair left

 

[Bob]

every so often there's some cap that is magical. I recall wonder caps back in the 70s. then
the BGs, and recently the Russian teflons and Vcaps.. Both the BGs and the Russian
teflons require some time to break-in.

I think cap technology improves and unless you absolutely must have the BGs for their SQ,
then any TOTL caps from the majors will be OK to use.

 

[sonci]

I think cap technology improves and unless you absolutely must have the BGs for their SQ,
then any TOTL caps from the majors will be OK to use.

Technology improves so they can build a lot cheaper than before, but hardly a modern cap will last as long as a Blackgate or Elna made in the '80s.

 

[restorer-john]

It is funny in some ways that we lust after vintage gear AND the better vintage caps like Cerafines, BlackGates etc isn't it?

I must admit, I love opening an original TOTL piece of vintage Japanese gear and seeing an all original sea of Cerafines, Stargets, Black Gates, Muses etc, but soon enough, I see the wretched brown glue they used to hold them down...

Interesting the use of big Cerafines in PSU filtering, most Japanese big amp caps used Nichicon Great Supply or low ESR Nippon Chemicons. It was only statement pieces that could afford the big Cerafines. I've got a Marantz PM94 that uses them all the way through, including 4 in the PSU. (black/Gold for PSU and red sleeve cerafines for smaller values)

 

[sonci]

I remember sanding the legs of a Blackgate cap, because they were too thick for the pcb, suddenly they turned red.
Placebo or not, who would make copper legs capacitors these days?

 

[restorer-john]

Pretty much all capacitors leads tinned copper wire, just like resistors, transistors and most other ...istors.

 

[gslikker]

use a magnet to see, there is a lot of iron, also?

 

[Superampman]

More like aluminum.