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When the smarter choice is actually a step down

Longaevus

Longaevus

Active Member
I am a budget oriented guy towards audio gear, I love it, but I can't break the bank on it because life has a lot more to it.
The point I am about to make is actually more relevant to vintage gear than modern due to the obviously higher risk of malfunctions that will eventually happen due to decades of usage and the higher endish the more costly it will be to repair and thinking of it just in terms of the purchase price is a mistake, a budget should take into account possible troubles that may arise.

Would you say that when money is an object and several hundred dollars can't be invested in say a top of the line 23XX Marantz integrated but on the contrary need to be put down on more pieces to nurture the need for versatility, diversity or sheer collecting, a lower end model would be enough to bring a smile to your face? What are your best examples?...

A couple of days ago a guy was calling me in order to finding out what would be my "bottom dollar" on a Kenwood KT-8005 I have been trying to sell and he stated that just recently he bought a very, very cheap, if my memoery is not playing tricks on me, Pioneer SX-1980 with burned outputs. Details aside he was quoted with a $600 repair cost... that is not much less than what I have invested in vintage gear... total... for a single repair... on a monster receiver... worth it? Maybe, it is a highly praised beast where he can easily get his money back but still, Pioneer has lots of nice receivers that are probably a step down feature wise and output power wise but wouldn't an 85w or 100w "mini-monster" 90% as good sounding and cost a fraction?


 
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Actually the lower powered Pioneer receivers are mentioned to sound better than the 1980.

there are lots of stops along the price ladder that will provide significant enjoyment. Many here like the smaller Marantz receivers, the 30 watters specifically, same with the SX-x3x receivers, the 737 getting called out. Just depends on what one must have to smile. Quantity is all some need whether it be lots of units or lots of watts. For others, a small nice sounding rig is great, like the HK 330 series of receivers.

As to the 1980 and the 600 buck repair. Well these things sell for amounts way above their sound quality but they are a collector item nonetheless and this means some will pay for that. I'll buy separate components if I had to spend SX-1980 money on something to do receiver duty.
 
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I've posted this in multiple other threads, because I have been down this "rabbit hole"--I spent years and thousands of dollars building up my "main" system to a certain level of resolution that rendered a lot of my favorite music virtually unlistenable. I listen to a lot of 60's-80's music--of which, a lot of is not notoriously well-recorded/well-engineered. I sold off most of that gear and dialed it back a notch or two, so I could actually listen to the music, rather than get trapped in listening to the flaws. Don't get me wrong--great recordings sounded amazing, but most of it--not so much, so I actually ended up "downgrading" to get back to where I was happy again. It only matters if YOUR system sounds good to YOU--regardless of price.
 
I've seen and heard Sansui 9090DBs and feel that I'm enjoying my 8080DB as much as I would the 9090, so I see what you mean. Of course, none of these are really cheap anymore barring a real stroke of luck.
 
A few years ago I would say just buy pre-owned Mcintosh, but its getting pricey now days on the internet. But every once in a while you will hear about someone finding some Mac at an estate sale for a farthing or 2. Get them restored and you will have something that will last another life time. Friends of mine have Sansui and a re mostly very happy. The issue though is now that most of them need to be restored, too. And finding specialists is not as easy as with the Mac products. I liked Revox/studer electronics, and older Marantz, but here again restoration, while available for the Marantz early tube and SS stuff, can end up being very costly. In the days of Stereo only equipment, Mcintosh was always your best investment. A new Pristine MC240 at $288,00 in great physical shape but in need if capacitor replacment can still easily demand close $5000.00 Your best investment now is in the century series amps, MC 150, 202, 300, 162,122 etc etc with the C-37, 34, 33, pre-amps etc etc. Tuners MR74,77 78. Some older stuff is to be avoided and the tube stuff is almost un affordable. Some of the integrated units like the MA 4300 and MA 6200 if you don't need big power can be a great deal.

Most of the older stuff before the 80's with a few exceptions from Mcintosh can't push some in- efficient speakers . Sansui has the same issue. SO PLAN AHEAD. BUY YOUR SPEAKERS FIRST.
 
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I see loads of money getting paid everyday at auctions for top-of-the-line models that I probably will never pay for because that $600 example up there is like a red light to me, I pray for the lower end models I have never go bad, I can't even think of getting the top of the food chain models and then having to pay hundreds of dollars to get them up to shape again...

I was however, looking for practical examples like that Sansui 9090DB vs Sansui 8080DB, being the TOTL the 9090 probably costs like double what the 8080 commands but only as a collector's item because sound-wise probably it won't be not even 15% better sounding...
 
I feel like this is a highly relevant question for me these days since I've been on a buying splurge. I had value in mind as I entered this rabbit hole. For some reason I had Marantz on my list as being a worthy heart to my main system. I didn't really look at the actual cost of repair for these vintage receivers. Anyway, I purchased for my main a Marantz 4270, 2 pairs of OLA's refurbished then stacked, Sansui SR 929 and a few Magnavox DAC's. I've been quoted for a complete recap on the 4270 $700. And after opening it up it is quite a tight compact unit. I'm in a very long queue and that's fine for me. I figure I'll budget for the refurb in the future and have a main unit in the value of $1200.

What I think is interesting is would I have better spent my money on a new unit? What would $1200 get me new? On another thread there's a discussion about a vaunted Sansui G33000 listed on the bay for $14k I suppose the value is what the market will bear. I must admit I love the look of the vintage gear and the unit I have paired sounds great to my ears, perhaps that'll change?

On the side, I drive a 1995 Miata "M" Edition I've been restoring. It just went in for new paint. While in the shop I had a rental car for about a week a Toyota Corolla and I enjoyed it, had lots of new features but I was so happy to be back in my old Miata. Maybe not a great comparison but I value things of yore. Are there better roadsters out there since 1995, sure and I bet they're awesome. I think it all boils down to where you place value. I was under the assumption that the vintage gear was a greater value? There are always exceptions like that aforementioned G33000. Oh and what is your budget.
 
twiiii said:
Mcintosh was always your best investment.
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McIntosh can be "an investment", but I don't care for their "house" sound--never have, probably never will--and IMHO it is ugly and even the new stuff has styling dating back to the 50's-60's--and I don't consider the original old units particularly attractive either. Not a "hater", just not my cup of tea, and I am certainly not including audio gear as part of my retirement portfolio.
 
Longaevus said:
I see loads of money getting paid everyday at auctions for top-of-the-line models that I probably will never pay for because that $600 example up there is like a red light to me, I pray for the lower end models I have never go bad, I can't even think of getting the top of the food chain models and then having to pay hundreds of dollars to get them up to shape again...

I was however, looking for practical examples like that Sansui 9090DB vs Sansui 8080DB, being the TOTL the 9090 probably costs like double what the 8080 commands but only as a collector's item because sound-wise probably it won't be not even 15% better sounding...
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My understanding is the Sansui 9090, 8080 with the DB (Dolby) feature are somewhat overpriced and not that necessary. A straight 9090 or 8080 are much more reasonable. When I go to buy another unit I'll make my offer contingent upon the cost of refurbishing.
 
I love my 40 year old Kenwood, but if I were starting off today I think I would be tempted to buy into a new Yamaha integrated. My Kenwood works great and sounds fantastic since EW has gone through it, but if I were to buy it or something like it today it would cost too much for my budget. The Yamahas 2 channel integrateds are getting very good reviews and are more affordable than most vintage amps out there that either need to be rebuilt or have been. I suppose if you are handy with a soldering iron (I think I know which end to hold one :idea:) then vintage starts to make more sense for a budget minded audiophile.
 
Things sure seem to have changed a lot in the seven years I've been back into the hobby. Some for the better, like the vinyl resurgence, and some for the worse. The days when someone's casual discard could be acquired easily and cheaply are far fewer now. Vintage hi-fi has become a hot market.

How long will it be until collectors "age out of the market"? Will any pieces become "antiques" that don't even have to be working, where undisturbed caked-on dust and cigarette burns are valued as "patina"?
 
Just for example, recently added a Marantz 2216 to my stable. 100% clean, had been fully reworked by a friend who's an audio technician, paid less than $200. Great to have a Manantz back in my lineup as my first receiver was a 2245 back in '73. I have a lot of equipment but have never paid more than $250 or so for any one item. There's still a lot of audio happiness to be found for low investment. Repair costs are definitely a factor. I have a lot of equipment that I will sell off as problems develop; others are keepers and I'd invest for repair/refurbishment down the line. The new chip amps are pretty good for day to day listening. I like a mix of old and new so that I always have replacement components to swap in.
 
P.S. Good advice above re the speakers - amp consideration. It's a marriage. My highest unit only has 100wpc because all of my setups are in fairly small rooms and I listen at moderate levels. I don't routinely turn that 100wpc Onkyo amp past 10'o clock (in a large living room setup). Maybe 11 o'clock or Noon with Phono as source.
 
I'm sorry....

But that's a bit of a reach saying that low watters sound better than an SX-1980. I know there is allot of love for these small entry level receivers and this love often creates a placebo effect which I have no problem with. To each his own..
But to put these small A-class as superior to a sonically superior unit is incomprehensible at best. The concept of not knowing and just believing it's true has become a bit rampant. It's one thing to say that distortion values are different when using a Class-A amp, it's another thing to say low watters equal an SX-1980 and it's absurd to refer a low watter as better than the SX-1980 no matter how much we love our little low watters.

Y'all have lost all credibility !!!
 
When you start bringing value and "good enough" into the question, things get hazy. I read a lot of assumptions, personal bias, and even a bit if prejudice into those first two posts of yours. People come into this hobby for a whole array of reasons, and often look to get something different out of it. Some want the best sound quality period, and are willing to sacrifice for it. Others are collectors, some want bang for the buck, some like to restore, others want the insanely low priced deal. Everyone will have a different point of view, varying financial resources, or technical skills, understanding spouses, or even time. What I find valuable and worth spending money on you will likely not see it the same way. For value I see none of it in receivers or vintage consumer grade electronics. But others do, and that's OK with me. But bang for the buck or great sound for the dollar spent resides in 80's and 90's era British integrated amps....to me.

But then again, I don't care about bang for the buck. So I don't own a British integrated either.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
As with a lot of individual decisions there is a near perfect balancing point for this. The fulcrum's location is based on a very complex formula of such weighted things as financial concerns, preference for vintage or modern, reliability, tubes or SS, ease of setup and use, aesthetic considerations, Spousal Acceptance Factor (often related to financial but also aesthetic concerns) prestige and possibly bragging rights, and finally trying to gain the very highest SQ once all the other considerations are accounted for and maxed out based on priority.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Why not just listen to music that was recorded with a higher quality? If you do no "step down" is necessary.
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That just doesn't even make sense to me--why would I pitch over half of the music I own because it was not super well-engineered/recorded? A lot of the stuff that I listen to and really like was recorded back in the day when the sound guys were just as wasted as the band/artist--so it is what it is. I am not going to limit my music selection simply based on poor recording/mastering techniques--might as well just turn on a ClearChannel FM station and listen to the same 10 albums over and over again.

Besides--I consider my vintage gear more of "period pieces"--if I listen to music on that gear, it is from the era for which that music was engineered--and in the case of my JBL Control monitors, it may have actually been engineered on them.
 
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