Why are the older idler wheel turntables so highly regarded?
- Thread starter randomuser01
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- garrard thorens turntables
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Lathe is the best option, but somehow set up in electric drill and dress it as it spins works at a push.
Chris
Frbock
Active Member
That would be correct on things like a Lenco L75. The Idler rubs on the underside of the platter, and distance from the hub determines speed. It'd be easy to put a strobe on and move the speed detents.
FreaK
is his own damn self
The idler diameter itself doesn't affect the speed in either case. In terms of gear ratios that's the whole point of what an idler is, it's a method of transferring motion between wheels or gears that intentionally maintains surface speed across the elements it contacts. It does this by contacting the input and the output with the same surface. The case of the Lenco it's the output gear, and to a lesser extent also the input gear that change diameter. The capstan of a lenco motor has a shallow taper, and as stated the radius on the platter changes as the lever is moved. On most idler drive turntables speed is adjusted at the input gear, that is the various stepped diameters of the capstan.
I did the wheel on my 4hf in situ, with an emery board. Takes longer but does work.
johnnytarget
New Member
"Drive and propulsion" is a made up construct that has nothing to do with what's going on with electromechanical systems like turntables.
If you have a direct drive spinning precisely at 33.33 rpm and you have an idler spinning at 33.43 rpm with somewhat more wow and flutter, how does this "drive and propulsion" manifest itself in the latter but not the former?
Your ears are clogged with at least two bias obstructions. Enjoy your day.
likebike23
Addicted Member
I think if I took off the pulley on a Dual 1019 motor and replaced it with a milling bit I could cut through the platter of a typical direct drive faster than if I tried to cut through a 1019 platter with the direct drive motor.
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Speed and W&F are only part of it, much like .0001 THD numbers in cheap transistor amps. Torque, the energy of heavy platters spinning on low friction bearings, etc. All that aside, I like what I like.
adnick
Addicted Member
If you’re thesis was absolutely supportable across the industry everyone would be making/using the same type turntable
everything in a system has an effect on what‘s produced out of the speakers. The Japanese wouldn’t have bought up ship loads of Garrard 301/401 from their native Country, it’s a common supposition that’s there many more Garrards in Japan than in the UK. Japanese also purchased much of our vintage Western Electric tubes & tube equipment and are certainly responsible for the inflated prices of that equipment.Different tables response differently ( acousticly ) to different tonearms, so it’s not just a matter of comparing the same arm/cart between 2 separate table designs; not that there’s anything wrong with that particular comparison, it can be enlightening but it’s not definitive if one component isn’t the same….
The plethora of equipment choices are what makes this hobby appealing across a wide spectrum of people, but it’s the individual experiences over time that will drive our choices….
VR
Andy
Well put^^ Lots of things to choose from. Like my Duals. Work on them, see a problem once, you’ll see it again! Love this hobby.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
I was talking about idlers that travel on the inside edge of the platter. If the platter is smaller ie less distance the platter goes faster. As I said only the spindle and the platter effect speed
Chris
Frbock
Active Member
I've never run into a inside edge TT that had a tapered surface. The detents for speed would be adjustable, and you would have the same effect.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
I never said any idlers had a tapered inside edge.
I said the diameter of the inside edge and thr diameter of the motor spindle affects speed not the diameter of the idler
johnnytarget
New Member
If you’re thesis was absolutely supportable across the industry everyone would be making/using the same type turntable
Different tables response differently ( acousticly ) to different tonearms, so it’s not just a matter of comparing the same arm/cart between 2 separate table designs; not that there’s anything wrong with that particular comparison, it can be enlightening but it’s not definitive if one component isn’t the same….
The plethora of equipment choices are what makes this hobby appealing across a wide spectrum of people, but it’s the individual experiences over time that will drive our choices….
VR
Andy
That's a very interesting response, but you don't answer my question even a teensy bit. I said the description "drive and propulsion" is nonsensical as a description of the advantages of idler-drive TT. You replied that the Garrard 301/401 are popular in Japan and that different tables like different tonearms. Two points I never touched upon and have no disagreement with.
Do not direct drive platters spin round and round with enuf "force" so that its direct "drive" "propels" it in a constant 360-degree motion without stopping? Do they not spin with the same "drive and propulsion" as any other platter that is propelled round and round by a motor? Oh, and did not Garrard make many idlers with crappy lightweight stamped platters. Do those have "drive and propulsion" too?
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Johnny, have you spent any time with a big idler; anything other than a Dual or Mirecord? I ask because you have posted direct experience with those but if you have experience with a Garrard 301/401, Thorens 124, ROK, Russco………I don’t see any posts. I’ll admit that I’ve only spent time with my Russco but it has convinced me that ‘drive and propulsion’ is a real thing.
You are new here. If you have experience to back up your claims you may want to share it.
Andy’s vast experience with idler turntables speaks for itself.
You are new here. If you have experience to back up your claims you may want to share it.
Andy’s vast experience with idler turntables speaks for itself.
johnnytarget
New Member
I'm not saying you don't have the experience of "drive and propulsion." I'm asking you guys to explain to me what it means in plain English. So far, no one has been able to. They seem to believe something that they can't describe.
Because they sound so good when working properly is my conclusion.
adnick
Addicted Member
Sure I did, made a direct antithesis, then included some real world audio enthusiast choices of products that also disprove you argument, you may have missed it, actually you ignored the critical response and jumped to the Garrard supporting example …
Again, if you’re thesis was correct every one would be building/using the same table (drive type)—which is obviously not the case, that’s the antithesis….very few people within this hobby would argue that all turntables sound the same, also pointed out that every individual part of the chain (analog audio) influences and/or effects the sound.
Historically one can just spend some time researching the difference types of record cutting lathes and the differences/evolutions in cutting lathe drive types….For example Fairchild was instrumental in creating and overcoming issues in using belt driven cutting lathes and belt driven commercial broadcast tabes. Those advances in belt driven technology have influenced belt driven table designs from that point on. EMT broadcast technology is another example, but this is a very involved engineering field that space and time…
Something as simple as twisting a belt drive belt, filling a platter, changing the platter material, and/or enhancing the bearing design will change the performance of the table (examples of every little part of the audio chain influencing the output). Even changing the platter mat material can have a positive/negative effect on the acoustics produced…..
Bottom line is that mechanic al drive an propulsion types influence sound is the vast differences in production table types, and then we have the individual end user preferences to contend with
VR
Andy
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I have discussed earlier in this thread and possibly in other threads, my experience when playing a Dual 1019 next to an AR which had an acrylic platter with lead mat, periphery clamping ring, acrylic subchassis, regulated outboard power supply, all in a massive plinth which was lead lined and weighs well over fifty pounds. I changed to the present tense because it is now with a friend who loves the thing. The Dual had much more punch in the low end and a very tuneful presentation. My friend was tapping his foot to the Dual. The Merrill delivered gobs more detail and a bigger soundstage, but bass and drums were faster and tighter off the Dual. I have owned DD turntables and a few nice BD turntables. I’ve listened to systems with some top tier BDs and my humble Russco has better speed, depth and solidity in the low end than anything I have experienced. Might not be a fair comparison but my AR has a slower and flabbier low end, good detail and soundstag, and a softer, sweeter presentation. Same Shure cartridge on both. Does that help?