cafe latte
Addicted Member
I also own a Lenco, as much as I enjoy the Lenco it does not come close to a Commonwealth
Why are the older idler wheel turntables so highly regarded?
- Thread starter randomuser01
- Start date
-
- Tags
- garrard thorens turntables
adnick
Addicted Member
Glad you like the Commonwealth but almost all of the audio world would disagree with you, however as I said before that does change your perspective 
There’s a great build thread on whatsbestforum on a commonwealth.
Personally I’d pick the Shindo 301 package if given a choice then probably an EMT 927
There’s a great build thread on whatsbestforum on a commonwealth.Personally I’d pick the Shindo 301 package if given a choice then probably an EMT 927
cafe latte
Addicted Member
To give some perspective a 401s platter is 2.5kg, the Commonwealth is 3kg, the motor on the Commonwealth is huge and the Commonwealth as a whole is much heavier.
Chris
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Actually they don't, the reason the 301 and 401 have such a following is simply as they are plentiful not because they are better.Glad you like the Commonwealth but almost all of the audio world would disagree with you, however as I said before that does change your perspective
Personally I’d pick the Shindo 301 package if given a choice then probably an EMT 927
Even Shindo spec can't arrive at 0.02% wow and flutter but you can with a Commonwealth
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
I like the 301 and thr 401, but everything is better on the Commonwealth, far better bearing, way way better motor, and shielded, a much more massive platter, it is better at every turn.
I have serviced lots of 301 and 401 motors and Commonwealth ones, only the Commonwealth ones spin so quite it feels like they are not working.
Chris
I have serviced lots of 301 and 401 motors and Commonwealth ones, only the Commonwealth ones spin so quite it feels like they are not working.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
It is amazing the number of people who express a preference without hearing the tables discussed.Glad you like the Commonwealth but almost all of the audio world would disagree with you, however as I said before that does change your perspective
Personally I’d pick the Shindo 301 package if given a choice then probably an EMT 927
I have several customers who have 301, 401 and Commonwealth and all prefer the Commonwealth.
You say " Almost all the audio world disagrees with me" This is nonsense as those in the Audio world who have actually heard a Commonwealth prefer it and for good reason.
The same reason Mark Dohmann of Dohmann turntables started his turntable journey modding Commonwealth's not 401s.
Chris
adnick
Addicted Member
Neither one of us saying “we have this table or that table” is going to change overall perceptions or facts…
That’s exactly like me saying everything is better on a ROK TR43H with the best AC synchronous Hysteresis motor every produced, our opinions are just that opinions, the highend audio world (market) has decided for decades which idlers are most sought after.
You really think Shindo picked a British designed machine to put his name on because he thought it was the 2nd or 3rd best platform to build from In Japan?
l’m really kinda a pacifist about claiming one table is better than another and would never actually say that any high end table clobbers another no matter the drive type….way too many variables—but will defend that they sound different, so will turntable manufactures
\
It’s not none sense that the whole audio world disagrees with you, unfortunately it’s factual, otherwise the market would be flooded with vintage or new production Commonwealths and you and I arguing about it isn’t changing decades of preference.
Maybe you should be making a sells pitch to restart Commonwealth production?
Which model is being reproduced today in the audio market?
Looks like a great entrepreneur opportunity
BTW I’m also content in the fact that the whole audio world disagrees with me about which drive type(s) are preferred
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Shindo picked Garrard as they are plentiful, it makes no sense to do what he did on a rare turntable.Neither one of us saying “we have this table or that table” is going to change overall perceptions or facts…
That’s exactly like me saying everything is better on a ROK TR43H with the best AC synchronous Hysteresis motor every produced, our opinions are just that opinions, the highend audio world (market) has decided for decades which idlers are most sought after.
You really think Shindo picked a British designed machine to put his name on because he thought it was the 2nd or 3rd best platform to build from In Japan?
l’m really kinda a pacifist about claiming one table is better than another and would never actually say that any high end table clobbers another no matter the drive type….way too many variables—but will defend that they sound different, so will turntable manufactures
\
It’s not none sense that the whole audio world disagrees with you, unfortunately it’s factual, otherwise the market would be flooded with vintage or new production Commonwealths and you and I arguing about it isn’t changing decades of preference.
Maybe you should be making a sells pitch to restart Commonwealth production?
Which model is being reproduced today in the audio market?
Looks like a great entrepreneur opportunity
BTW I’m also content in the fact that the whole audio world disagrees with me about which drive type(s) are preferred
You yourself said the audio world disagrees and the ranking is EMT then Garrard, this I feel is only from those who have not heard a Commonwealth (probably all making this assumption as Commonwealths are not in large numbers).
Price wise a clean but unrestored Commonwealth with cost you around double the price of a tidy 401, a fully restored Commonweath costs a LOT more so it seems they are more sought after other the pricing would be the other way round.
The Commonwealths are rare and those that have heard they rank them above the others, remember most people have not heard Commonwealth (also you) which makes what you are saying rather amusing.
Is a Nakamichi DD better than a Technics mk3? Dunno I have not heard either, it would be nuts of me to say anothing else with no personal experience..
My assertions here are from personal and my customers reports some who have 301, 401 and Commonwealth all rate the Commonwealth the highest.
Chris
It is not so important what is better DD, Nakamichi or Technics, because what you can do with perfect motor in the world of imperfect records? So centering is a must and only Nakamichi do it automatically. Otherwise you can have perfect turntable with 0,5% and up w&f on inner groove. I have some records, mostly Polydor, when after center search there are no correction and "absolute center" indicator lights for both sides. But they are few.
Last edited:
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Fine speed control is two tear drop spring loops on the idler arm, if you want the deck slower make them face each other, faster turn one to the side which pulls the idler in more, both tithe side more still.
You can get it spot on this,way and it stays correct.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
I mentioned these making the point that I have no experience of thrm so can't comment but you are right in that centring in the Nak is an advantage. That said I have no experience of the sum of its parts working together which was my point.
I would love to here both desks at some point.
Chris
Here is an old video.
www.stereonet.com
No experince with a commonwealth.
Commonwealth Turntables Owners & Discussion Thread
Hard to believe this film exists. Enjoy!
www.stereonet.com
No experince with a commonwealth.
Very nice video! Thanks!Here is an old video.
Commonwealth Turntables Owners & Discussion Thread
Hard to believe this film exists. Enjoy!
No experince with a commonwealth.
It do what it supposed to do - center records to 0,02mm. For example, I have record with correct hole diameter and absolute center side A but 0,4mm off center side B. But on piano record on inner track, you can start to listen wow at even 0,1mm eccentricity, however on most records 0,1mm off center would be acceptable. I believe if Technics SP-10 (for example), and Nakamichi motors was swapped there would not be listenable difference.
adnick
Addicted Member
One of the most interesting concepts in the modern era is that we can design /build better than the previous generations, technically that arrogance is a form of Presentism….The concept is true from a new material perspective but turntable engineers that designed and built the big broadcast/transcription idlers actually knew what they were doing and built fantastic machines with the materials available to them.
Modern materials and better understanding of plinth designs have helped overcome some obstacles but the motors they selected were/are fantastic and platter design & weight were well thought out.
Multiple big Idlers of one type or another Broadcasters, Transcription and Recorders, by RCA, Presto, ROK, EMT, Gates, and McCurdy to name a few….
The Gates CB11 & 500 with 16” platter, probably the best drive implementation
The McCurdy 16 with 16” platter, very creative idler system and motor cage/mount—there were some Ashland H models
ROK V16 & G 16” platter H models. Frank Sinatra had a V16 or similar as his personal table, then there’s the TR12H & TR43H 12” platters
Most of the above didn’t need a tremendously heavy platter, because they had an Elinco, Ashland or similar AC synchronous Hysteresis motor
Idlers have become a passion for me, its strange because I’d always thought of them as old mechanical devices, that they couldn’t possibly compete with my DDs
Kept that bias against idlers for decades even though I’d made several plinths for other peoples idlers and belt drives they just didn’t appeal to me. Until my plinth wor began to include post build testing for noise and vibration, apps like Vibration Analysis
The genius of the Garrard 301/401 is the powerful shaded pole motor, and it’s spring loaded cage, which the idler rides against, the shaded pole design is slightly effected by voltage/current so the speed is adjustable with a pitch control, the TD 124 employs similar feature, plus lets not forget the hand lapped shaft to perfect tolerance…SME is offering a brand new 301same as the old one with some 401 enhancement, here’s a review by Art Dudley, his favorite (personal) turntable was an old Garrard 301
www.stereophile.com
The Thrones TD 124 also used a shaded pole motor, originally about 1/2 the power of the 301 but upgraded in the 2nd version, it’s clever belt/idler drive system with a clutch top plate makes it one of the most sought after tables by enthusiasts, change out the motor mounts add a modern well balanced idler, and custom constrained layered plinth and it’s a force to be reckoned with.
Here’s a picture of my ROK TR43H with the platter off, main bearing well is massive, and the idler shafts are 7/16“ in diameter, upgrades are: custom Derlin/rubber idlers, Derlin platter bearing, compartmented/filled plinth, (there’s a giant Ashland motor, hanging underneath, the size of a coffee can)
Next photo is a modern Italian made idler—wonder where they came up with that
www.ibelieveinhifi.com
Modern materials and better understanding of plinth designs have helped overcome some obstacles but the motors they selected were/are fantastic and platter design & weight were well thought out.
Multiple big Idlers of one type or another Broadcasters, Transcription and Recorders, by RCA, Presto, ROK, EMT, Gates, and McCurdy to name a few….
The Gates CB11 & 500 with 16” platter, probably the best drive implementation
The McCurdy 16 with 16” platter, very creative idler system and motor cage/mount—there were some Ashland H models
ROK V16 & G 16” platter H models. Frank Sinatra had a V16 or similar as his personal table, then there’s the TR12H & TR43H 12” platters
Most of the above didn’t need a tremendously heavy platter, because they had an Elinco, Ashland or similar AC synchronous Hysteresis motor
Idlers have become a passion for me, its strange because I’d always thought of them as old mechanical devices, that they couldn’t possibly compete with my DDs
Kept that bias against idlers for decades even though I’d made several plinths for other peoples idlers and belt drives they just didn’t appeal to me. Until my plinth wor began to include post build testing for noise and vibration, apps like Vibration Analysis
The genius of the Garrard 301/401 is the powerful shaded pole motor, and it’s spring loaded cage, which the idler rides against, the shaded pole design is slightly effected by voltage/current so the speed is adjustable with a pitch control, the TD 124 employs similar feature, plus lets not forget the hand lapped shaft to perfect tolerance…SME is offering a brand new 301same as the old one with some 401 enhancement, here’s a review by Art Dudley, his favorite (personal) turntable was an old Garrard 301
Listening #204: the New Garrard 301 | Stereophile.com
Some loss of innocence is expected with both age and experience. Because I tick both boxes, and in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, I'm often a bit blasé in the face of new review samples. I wasn't with this one. A brief recap: At the 2018 High End show in Munich, UK-based SME announced...
The Thrones TD 124 also used a shaded pole motor, originally about 1/2 the power of the 301 but upgraded in the 2nd version, it’s clever belt/idler drive system with a clutch top plate makes it one of the most sought after tables by enthusiasts, change out the motor mounts add a modern well balanced idler, and custom constrained layered plinth and it’s a force to be reckoned with.
Here’s a picture of my ROK TR43H with the platter off, main bearing well is massive, and the idler shafts are 7/16“ in diameter, upgrades are: custom Derlin/rubber idlers, Derlin platter bearing, compartmented/filled plinth, (there’s a giant Ashland motor, hanging underneath, the size of a coffee can)
Next photo is a modern Italian made idler—wonder where they came up with that
Torqueo Audio T-34 Exclusive Zebrano (Full Size) — BELIEVE HIGH FIDELITY
Includes Cu-2900 Copper Mat
www.ibelieveinhifi.com
analogadict
Active Member
Interesting!
The motor is synchronous? And this spring arrangement increases or decreases the idler pressure against the motor pulley and the platter?
Could you share a pic of the set up?
Regards,
cafe latte
Addicted Member
It is a bit of a pain to take the platter off as the ball usually drops off the spindle and I have to go fishing for ut with a pencil and blu tac to get it back
I have a Commonwealth apart and I will take a pic of the spring lobes later
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
My friends Commonwealth tested for wow and flutter. Unbelievably good result.One of the most interesting concepts in the modern era is that we can design /build better than the previous generations, technically that arrogance is a form of Presentism….The concept is true from a new material perspective but turntable engineers that designed and built the big broadcast/transcription idlers actually knew what they were doing and built fantastic machines with the materials available to them.
Modern materials and better understanding of plinth designs have helped overcome some obstacles but the motors they selected were/are fantastic and platter design & weight were well thought out.
Multiple big Idlers of one type or another Broadcasters, Transcription and Recorders, by RCA, Presto, ROK, EMT, Gates, and McCurdy to name a few….
The Gates CB11 & 500 with 16” platter, probably the best drive implementation
The McCurdy 16 with 16” platter, very creative idler system and motor cage/mount—there were some Ashland H models
ROK V16 & G 16” platter H models. Frank Sinatra had a V16 or similar as his personal table, then there’s the TR12H & TR43H 12” platters
Most of the above didn’t need a tremendously heavy platter, because they had an Elinco, Ashland or similar AC synchronous Hysteresis motor
Idlers have become a passion for me, its strange because I’d always thought of them as old mechanical devices, that they couldn’t possibly compete with my DDs
Kept that bias against idlers for decades even though I’d made several plinths for other peoples idlers and belt drives they just didn’t appeal to me. Until my plinth wor began to include post build testing for noise and vibration, apps like Vibration Analysis
The genius of the Garrard 301/401 is the powerful shaded pole motor, and it’s spring loaded cage, which the idler rides against, the shaded pole design is slightly effected by voltage/current so the speed is adjustable with a pitch control, the TD 124 employs similar feature, plus lets not forget the hand lapped shaft to perfect tolerance…SME is offering a brand new 301same as the old one with some 401 enhancement, here’s a review by Art Dudley, his favorite (personal) turntable was an old Garrard 301
Listening #204: the New Garrard 301 | Stereophile.com
Some loss of innocence is expected with both age and experience. Because I tick both boxes, and in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, I'm often a bit blasé in the face of new review samples. I wasn't with this one. A brief recap: At the 2018 High End show in Munich, UK-based SME announced...
The Thrones TD 124 also used a shaded pole motor, originally about 1/2 the power of the 301 but upgraded in the 2nd version, it’s clever belt/idler drive system with a clutch top plate makes it one of the most sought after tables by enthusiasts, change out the motor mounts add a modern well balanced idler, and custom constrained layered plinth and it’s a force to be reckoned with.
Here’s a picture of my ROK TR43H with the platter off, main bearing well is massive, and the idler shafts are 7/16“ in diameter, upgrades are: custom Derlin/rubber idlers, Derlin platter bearing, compartmented/filled plinth, (there’s a giant Ashland motor, hanging underneath, the size of a coffee can)
Next photo is a modern Italian made idler—wonder where they came up with that
View attachment 3278572
Torqueo Audio T-34 Exclusive Zebrano (Full Size) — BELIEVE HIGH FIDELITY
Includes Cu-2900 Copper Mat
View attachment 3278574
People don't realise a well fettled idler can perform as good as a DD.
Chris
Attachments
