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Why do different amps sound so different?

Although this is a very obvious statement; one thing that definitely separates various amps is their power output. Even if you are a staunch believer that all amps sound the same, I would hope you would still agree that a ~30wpc amp will sound different than a ~100wpc amp when attempting to output ~40wpc.

I feel many still underestimate the power that they need. You may have enough for your average volume but do you have enough for peaks? You might have enough for most music but what about bass-heavy music that sucks up amp power like a sponge? It always makes me wonder how many people, when they talk about bloated or loose/flabby bass, might consider that it could be a power issue and not simply the amp having a different sound. Giving my speakers the power that they needed certainly helped tighten things up for me :)
 
Low-fi, mid-fi, hi-f, it doesn't matter. Components with identical specs will be very hard to tell apart. The thing is, finding two that measure identically is probably not possible, hence given enough time to evaluate, differences will become apparent.
 
Chris Brown said:
Although this is a very obvious statement; one thing that definitely separates various amps is their power output. Even if you are a staunch believer that all amps sound the same, I would hope you would still agree that a ~30wpc amp will sound different than a ~100wpc amp when attempting to output ~40wpc.
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Of course, but using the amps within their capability is one of the stipulations of the amps sound same/similar proponents. Problem is, many leave off the stipulations so as to build a strawman about the topic.

Chris Brown said:
I feel many still underestimate the power that they need.
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I think that's a distinct possibility. Or, a corallary, they're pushing harder than they think.
 
Superampman said:
... The thing is, finding two that measure identically is probably not possible, hence given enough time to evaluate, differences will become apparent.
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I disagee, inasmuch as I believe there are things we can measure but are below audible thresholds.
 
botrytis said:
AYUP - it is the pre-amps that are making them different not the amp section.

Why do people get so confused by this?
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Lots of folks, and this apparently includes the original poster, don't understand the terminology.

Lots of those who do know the difference, have an axe to grind and are in such a hurry to start grinding that they overlook the parts of the original post that identify the pieces in question.

Others may not be familiar with any of those model numbers and might have assumed that the original poster really was talking about power amps.
 
I asked to try to get educated a little. Excuse the incorrect terminology, I'll learn as I go. Thanks everybody for the interesting replies.
 
Amplifiers sound different because the methods of accomplishing the goal are radically different electrically, by which I mean mathematically. These differences mean that the distortion products, or distortion signature, is different for each design.

INPUT SIGNAL--->TRANSFER FUNCTION (amplifier)--->OUTPUT SIGNAL

The transfer function defines how voltage, current and impedance are changed over a broad range of frequencies. None of those transformations are a linear process. Because they are not linear (perfect), they yield distortions from the original. And different circuit arrangements - aka topologies - emphasize different strengths and weaknesses in the process of transformation.

Additionally, the amplifier sits between two other components, and both of those will change the character of the amplifier dynamically depending on which topology the amplifier employs.

A small example. A bipolar transistor has a completely different mathematical transfer function from a triode vacuum tube. They obey different rules, and thus produce different output and distortion products. When put in circuits, they are manipulated by the rest of the circuit to make them as linear as possible, but the output is still different from each other.

I don't think there is any controversy about the math or physics of the reasons for differences in output. The controversy occurs over what anyone can hear or not hear about these differences. And the discussion of hearing, opens up the entire spectrum of perception because hearing is not a simple mathematical function. Making it worse yet, there is also psychology that enters the picture when discussing the perceptions!

The more similar the topologies are in any two amplifiers, the more similar the sound. Two BJT Class AB amps will sound more similar than a BJT Class AB compared to a Single Ended Triode (SET) amp.

Since many amplifiers are designed from cookbooks (proven workable designs published by the device manufacturers) they will tend to sound the same also. Look for radical differences in topology to find larger differences in sound.
 
whoaru99 said:
I disagee, inasmuch as I believe there are things we can measure but are below audible thresholds.
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You may very well be right. However my experience has has not brought me to two identically sounding amps as of yet. That goes for amps that are identical models.
 
In general.....

The folks who believe that all amps sound the same point to ABX testing, etc., etc., etc. as their proof.

The folks who believe that amps sound different maintain that the ABX test (or whatever else is offered as proof by the opposing camp) masks differences that can only be identified through long term listening.

Been playing with Hi-Fi for a lot of years (45+) and have never seen this argument resolved to either camp's satisfaction.

Personally, the only criteria I use when evaluating a new component in my system is: If I listen to more music, it is good. If I listen to less music, it is bad.

Have fun, relax and listen..... :music:
 
If amps (or receivers) sound different, but measure the same, you're measuring the wrong things. I've never seen an amp that didn't reveal the reason for its "sound" on the test bench.
 
There are two reasons I can think of that amps sound different.

The first is what sound is the amps designer looking for. Some may want more bass, which gives the false impression of more power, some might want it a bit bright, which gives the false impression of a higher resolution amp, some my elevate the mid bass and mid range to produce a warmer sound. Some aren't particular, they design an amp based on cost and power (for marketing purposes) that sounds good to them.

If two manufactures are trying to attain any one of these sounds, then it becomes which suites us best. Some may want a touch of warmth, others may want more for example.

The quality of the amp will determine how well the amp does with all other characteristics of sound, Like sound stage, Imaging, Low level resolution, ect.

A few manufactures try to produce a transparent amp that has no sound at all. In this case, the closer any 2 amps are in quality, the closer they should sound. It doesn't matter if they are tube or SS or Class A or A/B.
 
Following on some implication that amps could measure same/similar yet sound quite different, what amplifier design aspects might produce more bass or more treble or bigger soundstage or better imaging without showing up in a measurement?
 
whoaru99 said:
Following on some implication that amps could measure same/similar yet sound quite different, what amplifier design aspects might produce more bass or more treble or bigger soundstage or better imaging without showing up in a measurement?
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Quite simply the distortions. The standard THD and IMD numbers reveal very little about the form of distortions present and the effect on listening qualities.

Last year at some point, on some forum somewhere, there was a link dropped in a thread that went to a guys paper. It went through systematically about 20 types of distortions. It was deep, but made sense and was just fascinating. It wasn't that they can't be measured, just not easy and it takes going much more in depth to get them than usually seen.

I've went back and looked at length to find that paper and haven't found it yet. I try to keep a lot of stuff and for the life of me, I'm not sure why I didn't think to keep that one.

EV3
 
So you're not saying the difference wouldn't show up in measurements, just not the measurements commonly made (or presented)?
 
I could concur with that. In any case, I've found that the least fatiguing ones are also the ones with the flattest response. By far the best sounding when cranked up.
 
to the OP: differences between receivers will be noticeable due to the EQ circuits that are built in.

as for actual power amps:

it is my opinion that if an amp is adding anything at all to the sound then the amp is not performing properly. why would i want an amp that adds bass? adds treble? adds mids? isnt that what a preamp is supposed to do? shouldnt the amp just be in the chain to provide power to the speakers?

i've not actually heard any differences between amps i have owned (luckily). i started a thread about this once and went as far as to say that i would no longer be wasting my money on boutique amps. it was pointed out to me that all of the equipment i own is just mid-fi and that ive never actually owned any decent amps. everyone started getting pretty nasty so i ended up deleting the thread.

anyhow -- to me the following have all sounded the same:

crown xti 1002
parasound hca-2200 mk ii
luxman m-02
balanced audio technology vk-200
classe ca-100

in my opinion, the only real difference has been the amount of power they output. which just meant i didnt have to rotate the volume knob on my preamp as much.
 
whoaru99 said:
So you're not saying the difference wouldn't show up in measurements, just not the measurements commonly made (or presented)?
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That's my belief. There are all manner of things you can measure, but much of it won't be comprehensible to non-techie types. IMO, the usual max power THD and such are probably the most worthless measurements in terms of sound quality, but people tend to extrapolate that and say measurements in general are useless, which is certainly not the case.
 
eyekon218 said:
in my opinion, the only real difference has been the amount of power they output. which just meant i didnt have to rotate the volume knob on my preamp as much.
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Sounds like you've confused gain with power. Unrelated.

An amplifier has a fixed amount of gain. You turn up the knob for more volume, the gain remains the same. More in...more out. Until the power can't be delivered any more. That's where the power comes in play.

Said another way....if you have a 10 watt amp with 28db gain, and a behemoth 250 watt amp with 28db gain, then the volume knob will be in the same place for the same listening level....until no more power can be delivered.

EV3
 
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