mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
Depending, of course, on the precise taper of the volume potentiometer on each amplifier.
Why do different amps sound so different?
- Thread starter ssv1761982
- Start date
I should have been more clear. Referring to a pure amplifier section rather than an integrated. His list of sounds-alike's looked like amps...
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Personally, the only criteria I use when evaluating a new component in my system is: If I listen to more music, it is good. If I listen to less music, it is bad.
Have fun, relax and listen.....
This is the same criteria I use for my own evaluations of gear. I don't give two damn's about specs or objectivity. Everything that I even consider has good to great specs anyway. If I listen more it's better. If I listen less it goes.
If it passes my LTLT (long term listening test) it stays.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Does that mean you don't weed out anything from your list of stuff to audition based on specs?
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
I don't understand the question.
It seems that you edited your post while I was posting.
I don't even bother to check specs on gear (other than output power for power amplifiers) anymore. In the last 25+ years everything I've considered buying has good to great specs.
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JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Yep. See my revised post. Bear in mind that I'm only interested in separates. I've never owned a receiver and have no desire to ever own one. I've only owned one integrated amplifier. That was my first piece of gear (1967). It was a Fisher KX-90 that I built from a kit while in the service. After that Fisher I moved to full separates and it's been that way ever since.
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whoaru99
Epic Member
So you didn't look at any of the specs until after you had already decided to buy (other than rated power)?
Didn't eliminate any speakers from consideration before listening because the specs were 50Hz to 18kHz +/-10dB vs, 30Hz to 20kHz +/- 3dB, etc., or scratched DAC A from the audition list because it was only 24/96 instead of 24/192, etc.?
Didn't eliminate any speakers from consideration before listening because the specs were 50Hz to 18kHz +/-10dB vs, 30Hz to 20kHz +/- 3dB, etc., or scratched DAC A from the audition list because it was only 24/96 instead of 24/192, etc.?
davidro
Lunatic Member
The morale of the story may be that, if the difference cannot be made out on the ABX tests, the chances are that the difference is probably not as huge as a lot of people would like to think.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Every single speaker I've considered in the last 30+ years has response to 40Hz at minimum. The difference between -3dB response to 18KHz and 20KHz is IMO a non-issue (at least for me). As I'm only interested in full range esl's or some other type of panel all of this is pretty much a moot point. I'm committed to using multiple sub woofers so response to ~85Hz is all I require. As for sample rates and bit depth; of course I now pay attention to those variables only because high res downloads are available.
However, I thought this thread was about amplifiers. My original post was in reference to that. With that in mind I'll stick with my original post and say I don't concern myself with specs other than power output into a given load.
To whit: if the specs don't include a 4 Ohm power rating I'm not interested.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Right, so the point is that you do pay attention to specs up front, which tends to allow you to be much less concerned with them later on. Is that a fair summary?
Superampman
AK Member
Specs are going to have to be good before I even consider paying attention. There is a baseline after all, no? Mind you that base line may consist of consumer feed back also. So not necessarily ultra high specs.
TubeHiFiNut
Super Member
If I went on the basis of specs alone, I would never have auditioned, much less purchased, my Lowther PM2a drivers in Medallion enclosures driven by 300b SET amps.
Pure audio pleasure.
For me, at least.
Pure audio pleasure.
For me, at least.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Well, I do give the rest of the specs some cursory attention. However, all the gear I've ever considered since the late 70's has exemplary specs. So, things like THD, IMD and SN ratio I don't really pay any attention to. Even the cheap stuff has pretty good specs.
Very true. All the gear I have any interest in is above my arbitrary base line so I don't really concern myself with specs.
An example of this is that I've been considering buying either a pair of Latino 120's or a Rogue Audio (KT120) power amp. For both the only thing I've concerned myself with is the output power. Other than that I've not bothered checking.
TubeHiFiNut
Super Member
Not really....I prefer to listen for myself and form my own opinions.
A friend may buy a new component and rave about it. It may arouse my curiosity and it may not - depends on who and if we look for the same criteria in our systems.
I am the only one who has to be pleased with the audio equipment I buy.
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JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
whoaru99:
That depends. I've been posting on various site long enough to know who the various "fan boys" are. I don't pay any attention to their recommendations.:nono:
In addition there are those who like certain products that I think sound awful. This is especially evident with speakers. Their advice and opinions on specific items (speakers) I ignore.
Your opinions and recommendations and those of some others on this site I read and pay attention to.:thmbsp:
That depends. I've been posting on various site long enough to know who the various "fan boys" are. I don't pay any attention to their recommendations.:nono:
In addition there are those who like certain products that I think sound awful. This is especially evident with speakers. Their advice and opinions on specific items (speakers) I ignore.
Your opinions and recommendations and those of some others on this site I read and pay attention to.:thmbsp:
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restorer-john
Addicted Member
I'm a great believer of that premise too, but my latest discovery on my pair of big Sony TAN77es power amps has me scratching my head.
They are 430 apart in serial numbers, all the components are identical. Both are multivoltage units with no EU filtering. Both pull the same current from the wall and are running secondary rails within a volt or two of each other.
One is an ex Sony dealers demonstration unit, the other came from a Sony State manager's own collection.
They are both in excellent condition. Both test identically on my bench. Ruler flat to over 300kHz, distortion is below what I can measure (<0.001%) and power outputs are identical into 8 ohms. 4 ohm power output was difficult to measure due to my dummy loads getting close to destruction.
Intermodulation plots reveal nothing between them.
With a 100Hz, 3kHz, 10kHz square wave, their reproduction was identical. (I use a square wave to sort out my amps in short order).
So it isn't transient, rise, fall, power, response in the bottom or top ocataves, power bandwidth or anything I can test.
They sound different. I swear. The ex demo unit sounds better than the ex Sony Sate Manager's unit. The demo unit had a lot more hours on it.
I will try to record the difference by padding down the tapped off output into a DAT recorder and posting the files (when I get a chance)
I have subsequently tried several other pairs of identical amps (yes I have way too much gear) and subtle differences exist. (bear in mind I trim the flatness of each amp using a square wave and the tone controls where a tone bypass doesn't exist- this is very important in older amps as their response is usually far from flat when bass and treble are in the flat position)
They are 430 apart in serial numbers, all the components are identical. Both are multivoltage units with no EU filtering. Both pull the same current from the wall and are running secondary rails within a volt or two of each other.
One is an ex Sony dealers demonstration unit, the other came from a Sony State manager's own collection.
They are both in excellent condition. Both test identically on my bench. Ruler flat to over 300kHz, distortion is below what I can measure (<0.001%) and power outputs are identical into 8 ohms. 4 ohm power output was difficult to measure due to my dummy loads getting close to destruction.
Intermodulation plots reveal nothing between them.
With a 100Hz, 3kHz, 10kHz square wave, their reproduction was identical. (I use a square wave to sort out my amps in short order).
So it isn't transient, rise, fall, power, response in the bottom or top ocataves, power bandwidth or anything I can test.
They sound different. I swear. The ex demo unit sounds better than the ex Sony Sate Manager's unit. The demo unit had a lot more hours on it.
I will try to record the difference by padding down the tapped off output into a DAT recorder and posting the files (when I get a chance)
I have subsequently tried several other pairs of identical amps (yes I have way too much gear) and subtle differences exist. (bear in mind I trim the flatness of each amp using a square wave and the tone controls where a tone bypass doesn't exist- this is very important in older amps as their response is usually far from flat when bass and treble are in the flat position)