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Why is Linn lp 12 so much criticized?

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grottyash said:
How are the 3009 and the Ittok? I have an Akito, upgraded by Audio Origami, and a 3009 currently awaiting my 401 restoration. I did wonder about putting it on the LP 12, but am not sure it would be better than the Akito. Also, it's the lowest mass one, which restricts cartridge choice a bit.
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Once you get your 401 restored, you'll never use the LP12 ever again... but yes, you'll need a V15 or something for it. I prefer higher mass.

I'll reply more fully later. HNY!
 
L-82 said:
Hi Marc are you saying your AR is and was better? How would you dicribe today's level of your moded AR to today's Linn?
Cheers?
Mo
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I haven't had a current production Linn here at the house. I've had mid 80's with Valhalla PS that I've gone through, tuned, etc. Sound stage is bigger with my XA, or ES-1
 
What tonearm and cartridge - were they the same on the turntables you compared? Also, as I'm sure you are aware, soundstage is set in concrete during the recording session.
 
grottyash said:
What tonearm and cartridge - were they the same on the turntables you compared? Also, as I'm sure you are aware, soundstage is set in concrete during the recording session.
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On the XA, it has a modified original, on the ES-1 and the Linn Tables, Akito arms, Grado carts. I'm aware of what is recorded is what is recorded.
 
Pio1980 said:
FWIW, It all originated with Mitch Cotter via Stromberg Carlson IIRC. Then Villchur/AR, Ariston and Linn and everyone else more or less. This doesn't necessarily eliminate original concurrent research, that has happened many times when a concept seemingly comes 'out of the air' in it's own time.
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Facts right there. Stromberg-Carlson Perfectempo, AR, Thorens/Ariston/Linn. Basically the Ariston/early LP-12 was a very upgraded Thorens TD 150/160. No more. no less.
 
This thread was started by a troll who received their second warning from a mod for it. 5 years and 800 posts later, people are still taking the bait.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Facts right there. Stromberg-Carlson Perfectempo, AR, Thorens/Ariston/Linn. Basically the Ariston/early LP-12 was a very upgraded Thorens TD 150/160. No more. no less.
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Not quite. The AR et al used a three point suspension system as a shock absorber. The LP12 was created by pulling the foam damping out of the springs of a very handy Ariston RD11. Handy because Ivor's dad made bits of them in his factory.

This repurposed the springs. They ceased to be shock absorbers, but once levelled and straightened became effective at acoustic isolation.
 
Hamstall said:
Not quite. The AR et al used a three point suspension system as a shock absorber. The LP12 was created by pulling the foam damping out of the springs of a very handy Ariston RD11. Handy because Ivor's dad made bits of them in his factory.

This repurposed the springs. They ceased to be shock absorbers, but once levelled and straightened became effective at acoustic isolation.
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what????? the compression rate/deflection of the spring decides what frequency the suspension will filter down to. the foam dampers have no effect on the spring compression rate, deflection.
 
marcmorin said:
what????? the compression rate/deflection of the spring decides what frequency the suspension will filter down to. the foam dampers have no effect on the spring compression rate, deflection.
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A shock absorber must consist of spring and damper. The foam wedges are the dampers. Remove these, and shocks are not absorbed. Try walking on a suspended floor with an LP12 on a coffee table. Also, since the foam has both stiffness/compliance and a slight amount of mass, the compression rate is indeed altered.

As a feature of having dampers as well as springs, the suspension on an RD11 is damped, and as such the unit does not have the vertical multiple-bounce that the otherwise identical LP12 has.
 
Hamstall said:
since the foam has both stiffness/compliance and a slight amount of mass, the compression rate is indeed altered.
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Two competing compliances....the best suspensions use fabric dampers, not foam.

Interesting side note: Early carriages used wood or metal leaf springs bound in leather for a damped suspension. Worked well for centuries until the coil strut/pneumatic shock came along
 
Hamstall said:
A shock absorber must consist of spring and damper.

your wrong, the shock absorber controls the suspension spring (length in time) of the spring jounce. it's the spring that supports the weight of the vehicle, or in this case, the subchassis, platters, arm. Its the mass, of the above that sets the resonate (filtering -12db per octave) rate of the spring
F= (10/D)1/2 . The foam in the springs has zero effect on that


The foam wedges are the dampers. Remove these, and shocks are not absorbed. Try walking on a suspended floor with an LP12 on a coffee table. Also, since the foam has both stiffness/compliance and a slight amount of mass, the compression rate is indeed altered.

The mass of the foam is 0 to the suspension, as it is not suspended. The base of the table has no effects on the suspension rate, because it is not suspended either.

As a feature of having dampers as well as springs, the suspension on an RD11 is damped, and as such the unit does not have the vertical multiple-bounce that the otherwise identical LP12 has.
The upper and lower rubber grommets provide the spring damping in a Linn, along with the inherent spring spine in each spring due to un-equal compression rates of the three. Get the spine alignment wrong and the Linn suspension won't freakin jounce.
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Sorry old chap. I have two decks here. One is an RD11 with SME 3009. The other is a 1973 LP12 with the same arm. Springs are of the same type. If I could be a__ed to prove you wrong, I'd video the bounce times of one vs the other, but life is too short mate.

The other RD11 I have just sold bounced like an LP12 because I removed the damping foam. The foam directly affects the spring rate, because it is in itself a spring.

What you effectively are saying is that if you remove the hydraulic shock absorber from a MacPherson strut, the spring rate remains the same. I can assure you it doesn't.

From my time as an automotive engineer, I'll give you the example of the Citroen 2CV. Earlier types had inertia dampers, which functioned by fitting the hub with a cylinder within which was a weight suspended top and bottom by springs. The unit was filled with oil. When the wheel hit a bump, the weight opposed the upward motion of the wheel and forced the wheel down in contact with the road. On later models these were replaced by hydraulic shock absorbers which acted not on the wheel but on the suspension and chassis. If you rock the suspension on an early car, the vehicle continued to bounce several times. On a hydraulic shock equipped car, the suspension movement ceases very quickly.

In both cars, the actual springs are the same.
 
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Hamstall said:
The other RD11 I have just sold bounced like an LP12 because I removed the damping foam. The foam directly affects the spring rate, because it is in itself a spring.
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the frequency of the spring didn't change, the time to come to rest changed. if the foam was acting as a spring, the spring rate would have been higher, and the resonate frequency higher.
ripblade said:
Some interesting reading on the subject of automotive suspensions:

http://www.kaztechnologies.com/faq/#naturalfrequency

I'm no math expert, but when I see damping ratio included in the formula for a spring's natural frequency, I know damping affects frequency.
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if the displacement/deflection of the spring is a variable.
 
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