Why is Linn lp 12 so much criticized?
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I've heard the LP-12 described as an AR XA with aggressive marketing and a cost-no-object build philosophy, and there's a large kernel of truth in that description. The Linn's basic engineering is remarkably similar to the XA's and works at least as well. Some critics find Ivor Tiefenbrun's approach to marketing and his string of expensive upgrades off-putting, and I think that's where much of the negativity comes in.
For one reason it was basicly a clone of the AR XA. Some history I got from the web.
http://retrozound.blogspot.com/2009/07/history-of-passion.html
The biggest success story of that period however was their outrageously successful turntable, the XA. Initially known as the TA, Villchur started work on this as early as the late 1950’s, and finished the design just after the launch of the AR3. Initial calculations resulted in an introductory price of $58, but that was way too low, so they had to push it up to $78, complete but for the cartridge. Villchur was hoping that in its lifetime it would sell about 50,000 units; come the 70's AR was selling more than 50,000 per year! In 2008 it was calculated that to commercially re-introduce the XA today will give you a unit price in excess of $1500, so it is easy to understand why properly refurbished units are rated as good as anything out there. AR had thousands of TA orders immediately after announcing the launch in 1961, and the replacement model XA in 1963 was to become the reference turntable of the time, one of the biggest money spinners in the AR stable. It was to remain the world's all-time bestseller until the Linn Sondek LP12 came along; itself unsurprisingly a well-engineered clone of the XA (the Linn was introduced in 1972 and is still in production).
If you know your history then you'll realize why some do not like it as it copied from the AR XA.
I have never heard or seen an LP 12 but Id love to get one if it sounds as good as the XA.
Athansios
http://retrozound.blogspot.com/2009/07/history-of-passion.html
The biggest success story of that period however was their outrageously successful turntable, the XA. Initially known as the TA, Villchur started work on this as early as the late 1950’s, and finished the design just after the launch of the AR3. Initial calculations resulted in an introductory price of $58, but that was way too low, so they had to push it up to $78, complete but for the cartridge. Villchur was hoping that in its lifetime it would sell about 50,000 units; come the 70's AR was selling more than 50,000 per year! In 2008 it was calculated that to commercially re-introduce the XA today will give you a unit price in excess of $1500, so it is easy to understand why properly refurbished units are rated as good as anything out there. AR had thousands of TA orders immediately after announcing the launch in 1961, and the replacement model XA in 1963 was to become the reference turntable of the time, one of the biggest money spinners in the AR stable. It was to remain the world's all-time bestseller until the Linn Sondek LP12 came along; itself unsurprisingly a well-engineered clone of the XA (the Linn was introduced in 1972 and is still in production).
If you know your history then you'll realize why some do not like it as it copied from the AR XA.
I have never heard or seen an LP 12 but Id love to get one if it sounds as good as the XA.
Athansios
Indirectly speaking?
Wasnt the Sondek an improved version of the xa? with better power supply and improved engineering overall?
tube-a-lou
Addicted Member
Years ago that was true on some levels, it happen to me once or twice
walk into a Linn dealer and was asked "what kind of turntable you have"
and it was like if you don't have a Linn your not hearing the music!
Tube
ddarch
Super Member
Relating an XA to a Linn is like relating an XA to a mid-80's AR. There is a whole new level to be had with the derivatives. The XA has a special synergy, but the 80's ARs and the Linn line offer a level of refinement you can't reach with the basic elements of the XA.
I have just recently begun to know Linn TTs firsthand, and I am impressed, most especially with the bearing system. Extremely well machined. I do not yet have an opinion on what all of the upgrades offered by Linn truly add to performance, but there is no question Linn belongs solidly in the upper echelon of suspended subchassis tables.
Why are they maligned? Who knows...but as someone said, you should not criticize until you have heard one.
Dave
I have just recently begun to know Linn TTs firsthand, and I am impressed, most especially with the bearing system. Extremely well machined. I do not yet have an opinion on what all of the upgrades offered by Linn truly add to performance, but there is no question Linn belongs solidly in the upper echelon of suspended subchassis tables.
Why are they maligned? Who knows...but as someone said, you should not criticize until you have heard one.
Dave
Thats pushy and arrogant. but that aside was the linn really that good?
wharf rat
Well-Known Member
I had an LP12
I had to sell my gear about a 2 years ago among the stuff was an LP12. Would I still have it if I didn't need to sell it.....yes. I think it's a really good table. I now have a Rek-O-Kut B12 and am very happy with it. It has a different sound. I don't have the language to communicate the differences but I think the LP12 is a more relaxed presentation. I find myself noticing more with the idler. Wouldn't call it better; just different.
The knee-jerk reaction, I think, comes from someone who has to justify their position. My thought is that there is too much myopia (tunnel vision) in this hobby. Either/or, good/bad, right way/wrong way... Music and its enjoyment is subjective. Let's all sit back, spin some tunes, listen, and smile.
I had to sell my gear about a 2 years ago among the stuff was an LP12. Would I still have it if I didn't need to sell it.....yes. I think it's a really good table. I now have a Rek-O-Kut B12 and am very happy with it. It has a different sound. I don't have the language to communicate the differences but I think the LP12 is a more relaxed presentation. I find myself noticing more with the idler. Wouldn't call it better; just different.
The knee-jerk reaction, I think, comes from someone who has to justify their position. My thought is that there is too much myopia (tunnel vision) in this hobby. Either/or, good/bad, right way/wrong way... Music and its enjoyment is subjective. Let's all sit back, spin some tunes, listen, and smile.
marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
:thmbsp: +1 The Ariston RD11S I used to own was right there with my AR . The RD11S was pretty much an early production Linn LP12, or vice versa depending who you talk to.
Salvatore is about as over-rated as Linn is under-rated.
The LP 12 is more closely related to the Ariston than the AR. The RD11 is nigh onto a twin for the LP12. There were even some nasty lawsuits too, and if I remember correctly, Aristons founder commited suicide.
Aside from being being a PITA to set up, the Linn is a spectacular turntable. Not too many I would choose over a good running Linn. They really are that good.
The LP 12 is more closely related to the Ariston than the AR. The RD11 is nigh onto a twin for the LP12. There were even some nasty lawsuits too, and if I remember correctly, Aristons founder commited suicide.
Aside from being being a PITA to set up, the Linn is a spectacular turntable. Not too many I would choose over a good running Linn. They really are that good.
vinylkid58
Super Member
As an owner, I'm not so impressed. IMHO, the stock bearing is just adequate.
It's a steel tube with a plastic liner and a hardened steel button swagged at the bottom. Pretty easy, and cheap.
The Linn upgrades are overpriced compared to some of the aftermarket goodies. For instance, the Greenstreet sub-chassis is a quarter the price of the $4k Keel.
jeff
Folks, please be careful in this thread? Vinny55 is a bit of a troll, and likes to fire up controversies. If you watch his posts, whenever a thread stays calm and reasoned, he sticks in something new to raise the hackles.
Vinny, this is your second troll thread today... you're not going to survive long here at this rate. Just because each thread doesn't cross the line by itself, we're easily able to see the pattern, and perfectly willing to act on it. This is your second warning.
Vinny, this is your second troll thread today... you're not going to survive long here at this rate. Just because each thread doesn't cross the line by itself, we're easily able to see the pattern, and perfectly willing to act on it. This is your second warning.
dogscanskate
Super Member
The Linn looks more closely related to the Thorens TD-150 turntable imo. They look so similar in basic build and the inverted bearing is a Thorens innovation if I'm not mistaken.
They may have copied the spring suspension from AR because that was also an amazing innovation in its time.
Whatever is said or thought about the LP-12 should not bother anyone. What Linn dealers said or whatever the Linnies think has no bearing on what you should choose for your own pleasure.
They may have copied the spring suspension from AR because that was also an amazing innovation in its time.
Whatever is said or thought about the LP-12 should not bother anyone. What Linn dealers said or whatever the Linnies think has no bearing on what you should choose for your own pleasure.
Pio1980
AK Member
FWIW, It all originated with Mitch Cotter via Stromberg Carlson IIRC. Then Villchur/AR, Ariston and Linn and everyone else more or less. This doesn't necessarily eliminate original concurrent research, that has happened many times when a concept seemingly comes 'out of the air' in it's own time.
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