Why is Linn lp 12 so much criticized?
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guiller
Toscaninichus Australis
This is similar to what I've read and heard. On top of it, some UK journals like the Gramophone had been accused of chauvinism and of being partial at the time of reviewing equipment, and the LP-12 entered playing an important role in those debates. What I remember is that, at the time (mid seventies), I switched from the Gramophone to the High Fidelity magazine (US) as the reviews in the latter seemed far more credible.
ddarch
Super Member
flavio81
Turntable technician
Yikes. That's a shocker.
MeatInStereo
Can outrun 80% of snakes
My first turntable was and currently is a Linn LP12, I am on my second Linn now and this one has a lot of upgrades and to me it sounds fabulous! I have friends who have tables that are not Linn's and I am not saying their tables are "crap" but I prefer the sound of the Linn. Their tables sound very nice. In the last two months I installed a Dynavector Karat 17D3 cart and it brought the table to another level of detail and speed. The LP12 is like a Porsche...it just keeps evolving. When setup properly and maintained IMO its really hard to beat. Yes its like other tables with better parts and new designs as mentioned earlier...but is that a bad thing?
guiller
Toscaninichus Australis
Thanks for this remark on the history of events. What I've found on Wikipedia (FWIW) is this:
Hamish Robertson designed the Ariston RD11 in 1971 with Castle Precision Engineering Ltd machining many of the parts. Robertson left Ariston, which had been taken over by Dunlop Westayr Ltd and reorganised as Ariston Audio Ltd. In February 1973 Linn Products Ltd. was formed to sell turntables made by Castle Precision Engineering. This was officially announced in an advertisement in Hi-Fi News & Record Review, with the following text: "The turntable previously available under the name Ariston RD11 is now available under the name Linn LP12."[1] There were claims, and even patent litigation at the time, that the first Linn Sondek LP12 was a carbon copy of the RD11, and many parts interchangeable.[2]
1. Hi-Fi News & Record Review, Vol. 6, No. 2, February 1973
2. David Price, - OLDE WORLDE - ARISTON RD11 TURNTABLE, Hi-Fi World, June 1998
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linn_Products
I couldn't find an article on Ariston Audio to confirm the cause of Ariston's founder death.
PS: I've found this:
History of the LP12
Origins
"There used to be a saying among the Scottish Hi-Fi community that the engineers coming out of university turned left to go to Heybrook and right to go to Linn.
The truth is, the two designs share a number of things in common. They are both three point sprung suspensions as both are based on the original AR white paper for transcription turntables. They both use a wood plinth which looks similar, a two-piece platter, and identical dust covers (except for the logo--LP12 Vs TT2).
There used to be another saying that Hamish Robertson who designed the Ariston RD11 was by nature a drinking man and not an entrepreneur. There came into his life a certain Ivor Tiefenbrun who suggested that his fathers' firm, from memory I think was called Castle Engineering, could machine parts for the Ariston turntable. Hamish accepted the offer and soon the product rolled of Ivor's production line. Imagine the shock some little time later when Ivor appeared at a northern Hi-Fi show with what seemed to be a carbon copy of the RD11 under his arm but now bearing the name Linn LP12.
From the above, it would appear that at least the Ariston and the LP12 were designed by the same engineer, to whit, Hamish Robertson..!!
Hamish, daunted by this, took to his bottle and some time later was found dead at home after a particularly heavy drinking bout. Rumour has it that he had committed suicide but I seem to remember the autopsy showed that he had asphyxiated by inhaling his own vomit."
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Keith
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27983
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You're probably correct.
But does one have to 'listen to it' to form an opinion? I don't think so. There's far more than how a turntable 'sounds' (which is highly subjective anyway) to consider.
Unless I found a Linn at a yard sale for ten bucks I would not own one. Besides being crippled with limited capability (some models are one-speed only 33 1/3 RPM!!) I found Linn's marketing approach dishonest and offensive. Linn's campaign of lies, exaggerated claims and smearing the competition may have sold turntables, but they will never earn my business. I have zero respect for companies like Linn.
Disclaimer: I have never heard a Linn in use. In criticizing it, I offered no opinion of how it 'sounds.'
Ivor (not Linn products) is what made being an audiophile an embarrassment in the 80's and continues to this day. That so many music lovers fell for his arrogant elitist bullshit makes us guilty by association and is what spawned multiple waves of audio nonsense which is now entrenched in the audio community and continues to undermine what a true audiophile should be and used to be. Why couln't he have just made a decent TT and kept his mouth shut...... like my Heybrook.
It's like you went into my head and took out my thoughts on the subject. Ewww.
Pio1980
AK Member
Originally Posted by UncleAng View Post
Ivor (not Linn products) is what made being an audiophile an embarrassment in the 80's and continues to this day. That so many music lovers fell for his arrogant elitist bullshit makes us guilty by association and is what spawned multiple waves of audio nonsense which is now entrenched in the audio community and continues to undermine what a true audiophile should be and used to be. Why couldn't he have just made a decent TT and kept his mouth shut...... like my Heybrook.
All covered in my early posting @ #2;
"There's a thin line between confidence and arrogance, folk admire the former and resent the latter. "Linnies" are frequently unaware or uncaring when they cross the line in their zeal and the TT becomes the target for resentment."
Ivor (not Linn products) is what made being an audiophile an embarrassment in the 80's and continues to this day. That so many music lovers fell for his arrogant elitist bullshit makes us guilty by association and is what spawned multiple waves of audio nonsense which is now entrenched in the audio community and continues to undermine what a true audiophile should be and used to be. Why couldn't he have just made a decent TT and kept his mouth shut...... like my Heybrook.
All covered in my early posting @ #2;
"There's a thin line between confidence and arrogance, folk admire the former and resent the latter. "Linnies" are frequently unaware or uncaring when they cross the line in their zeal and the TT becomes the target for resentment."
GreatTone
Super Member
I'm not much into weighing in on audio controversy on any side, and I don't have enough experience with different turntables to offer an authoritative opinion. That being said, I scored an Ariston RD11S about a week ago (similar to the Linn LP12), and I am suitably blown away. I was using a nice turntable before, but this is on another level entirely. It is both more detailed and more musical than anything I've ever had before. I went into it being very skeptical that a drive system and suspension could really make that much difference, and I had a bad feeling I was wasting my money and heading down another expensive audio rabbit hole that would offer only marginal rewards. Boy was I wrong.
It sounded great right away, just using it as the previous owner had set it up, but on Sunday I spent the afternoon properly tuning the suspension (and yes, it did take all afternoon). After that, it was like the proverbial angels singing, and I was enlightened. As I said in another thread, even my 12-year-old daughter heard the improvement.
I can't say I'm a Linn/Ariston/AR fanatic quite yet, but I can understand how people could become that way. It must be said that fanatics are very annoying to those who don't share their beliefs.
One more thing. The Ariston's ability to create 3-dimensional sound that actually sounds like real music is kind of astonishing. Before, I sat and listened very intently and quietly and analytically. Now I find myself singing along because the music is just so exciting and inspiring. That's what it's all about for me.
It sounded great right away, just using it as the previous owner had set it up, but on Sunday I spent the afternoon properly tuning the suspension (and yes, it did take all afternoon). After that, it was like the proverbial angels singing, and I was enlightened. As I said in another thread, even my 12-year-old daughter heard the improvement.
I can't say I'm a Linn/Ariston/AR fanatic quite yet, but I can understand how people could become that way. It must be said that fanatics are very annoying to those who don't share their beliefs.
One more thing. The Ariston's ability to create 3-dimensional sound that actually sounds like real music is kind of astonishing. Before, I sat and listened very intently and quietly and analytically. Now I find myself singing along because the music is just so exciting and inspiring. That's what it's all about for me.
The engineering principle where an isolated (suspended) platter is direct coupled to the tonearm and is therefore somewhat acoustically insulated from the base was invented by Edgar Villchur of AR fame. All the TTs you mention and a quite few others evolved from this breakthrough and are evolunionary executions of this concept. Despite the marketing hype of the manufacturers and press, the variance of the signature sound of these tables can accurately be described as nuances. Linn or otherwise.
melofelo
Addicted Member
the sondek is basically a finely toleranced main bearing and platter mated to 3 springs in a 70's styled box...
by the early 80's it was already being exposed by the logic dm-101 and the later Cranfield elite rock...
throw in the pink triangle pt too and roksan xerxes to the ring and soon Linn's 'upgrade' department were working overtime...
would i own one ?
sure if its cheap enough..
would i want one over an sme model 20 or roksan xerxes 20 plus?..
erm...no :scratch2:
by the early 80's it was already being exposed by the logic dm-101 and the later Cranfield elite rock...
throw in the pink triangle pt too and roksan xerxes to the ring and soon Linn's 'upgrade' department were working overtime...
would i own one ?
sure if its cheap enough..
would i want one over an sme model 20 or roksan xerxes 20 plus?..
erm...no :scratch2:
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Like GreatTone, I am not one for weighing in either, but I am 100% with cactuscowboy. I have not, and will never, own or use a Linn product, precisely for the reasons he stated.
Since I come from a town about 10 miles away from Linn products, and was in engineering studies at university at precisely the time this was all kicking off I feel I have enough local knowledge, background and competence to form my own opinions which are as stated.
Since I come from a town about 10 miles away from Linn products, and was in engineering studies at university at precisely the time this was all kicking off I feel I have enough local knowledge, background and competence to form my own opinions which are as stated.
michaelhigh
mind's eye music
My XA was $100, near-mint, and well worth it compared to the BPC out there on the market. AND I have a piece of history to boot.
If he did, it was a lot later and probably unrelated, since he had left the company that made Ariston by then, according to wikipedia:
"Hamish Robertson designed the Ariston RD11 in 1971 with Castle Precision Engineering Ltd machining many of the parts. Robertson left Ariston, which had been taken over by Dunlop Westayr Ltd and reorganised as Ariston Audio Ltd. In February 1973 Linn Products Ltd. was formed to sell turntables made by Castle Precision Engineering. This was officially announced in an advertisement in Hi-Fi News & Record Review, with the following text: "The turntable previously available under the name Ariston RD11 is now available under the name Linn LP12." There were claims, and even patent litigation at the time, that the first Linn Sondek LP12 was a carbon copy of the RD11, and many parts interchangeable"
The ad, according to other research on this forum, read: ""Please note that Castle Precision Engineering(Glasgow) Ltd.,241 Drakemire Drive,Castlemilk,Glasgow,G45 9SZ,wish it to be known that they have designed(Design Copyright),Developed(Patent Pending) The special bearing and bearing housing assembly,and pressed steel chassis incorporated into the transcription deck sold up to December 1972 under the name Ariston RD 11.In order to satisfy consumer demands,we have purchased new premises adjacent to the present factory and formed the company of Linn Products Ltd and are now manufacturing our own unique product,the " Linn-Sondek LP 12" transcription deck."
It appears Hamish Robertson though a fine engineer was not marketer. The bearing assembly,housing and chassis Ariston turntable were made for his Ariston company, which went bust because it could not pay its debts, hence the company that became Linn's decision to continue manufacture under their own name. i assume they owned the rights to at least the bearing and related designs.
Robertson was found choked on his own vomit - apparently he liked his drink - but I've not been able to verify this entirely, although the coroner's verdict will undoubtedly be recorded somewhere in Scotland. Whether the collapse of his own company was the cause of his unfortunate demise or the subsequent success of Linn I've not been able to find out, but it looks like the suicide story is just that, a story.
Ariston was taken over by Dunlop, another famous name in the turntable world, so later Aristons were not directly connected with the Sondek.
Both Ariston, Linn and others took the idea of the suspended sub-chassis from AR or Thorens, but none of them produced clones per se. It is interesting, though, that so many Linn parts fit the TD 150 which was first produced in 1965, which makes me think it, not the AR, was the true ancestor of the Ariston/Linn turntable.
Edit: Apologies for repeating much of a previous post. During the time I was researching this the other appeared.
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ETI_5000
Super Member
Some real world test figures from a comparison Australian Hi-Fi magazine did in the late 1970’s are following.
The figures are for: wow and flutter weighted RMS, rumble unweighted, rumble ‘A’ weighted, and all are real world test figures from the lab they used for testing, using calibrated test records, and calibrated meters. The last test was for the measured platter resonance, and it was given a rating based on how much it resonated – those that didn’t resonate much were ranked good, and those that did were ranked poor. They used to test them in the early hours of the morning, so that traffic rumble and things like that would be lower, and not influence the results as much.
Here are the results:
ADC Accutrac 4000 ($625):
0.065%, -38dB, -73dB, poor.
Denon DP-1700 ($411 less cartridge):
0.05%, -39.5dB, -72.5dB, fair.
Hitachi HT-840 ($499 less cartridge):
0.046%, -43.5dB, -72dB, poor.
JVC QL-7 ($449 less cartridge):
0.045%, -41.5dB, -73.5dB, fair.
Linn Sondek LP-12 ($465 less tonearm & cartridge):
0.03%, -58dB, -85dB, excellent.
Luxman PD-131 ($540 less tonearm & cartridge):
0.042%, -45.5dB, -74dB, excellent.
Marantz 6300: ($389 less cartridge):
0.06%, -43dB, -65dB, good.
Micro Seiki DD-40 ($565 less cartridge):
0.055%, -42dB, -65dB, excellent.
Mitsubishi DP-EC-1 ($729 less cartridge):
0.045%, -40dB, -71dB, fair.
Pioneer PL-540 ($429 less cartridge):
0.048%, -42dB, -66dB, poor.
Technics SL-1000MkII (SP-10 MkII with base - $999 without arm, cartridge & base):
0.04%, -46.5dB, -77dB, very good.
So you can see that the Linn Sondek LP-12 won every category, and wasn’t the most expensive turntable – the closest to it in performance (Luxman and Technics) were both more expensive. The Linn may have actually been better than the measured figures, as its measured rumble was at the limit of resolution of their test gear and records. It was also very good at resisting acoustic feedback, although it wasn’t alone in that regard – the AR, and the Ariston RD-11S (S for Superieur!) and Thorens models were also very good at that, as were plenty of other brands. I'm pretty sure that the acoustic isolation of the Linn is one of the reasons it and the others with floating suspension sound very good.
It certainly costs a lot more to buy in today's dollars than it did back then - unfortunately some people think a good performance reputation is a reason to start making them rich. I certainly wouldn't pay the prices they ask for Linn's these days, and since I was a schoolkid in the 1970's, I couldn't afford one then!
GreatTone
Super Member
I know little about turntable brands and less about the lore. When I bought my Ariston last week, I had barely even heard of the Linn LP12, and the only reason I bought the Ariston is I wanted a table with easily removable arm boards, and thought I'd like to try another belt drive after not having one for many years. Also it was pretty cheap.
I'm glad I didn't know all the marketing hype about Linn and the controversy over Ariston. It may have stopped me getting a great table, or colored the way I was hearing it. As it was, I heard it with no preconceived notions either good or bad. I was completely smitten by the sound on its own terms. That's a good thing.
I'm glad I didn't know all the marketing hype about Linn and the controversy over Ariston. It may have stopped me getting a great table, or colored the way I was hearing it. As it was, I heard it with no preconceived notions either good or bad. I was completely smitten by the sound on its own terms. That's a good thing.
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