flavio81
Turntable technician
For $15K+ i'd either have a EMT idler drive studio turntable on a very heavy plinth OR a cutting lathe.
Why is Linn lp 12 so much criticized?
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For $15K+ i'd either have a EMT idler drive studio turntable on a very heavy plinth OR a cutting lathe.
I don't think anybody is saying that the LP-12 sucks. The vibe I'm getting here, which matches my impression of the LP-12 from several past auditions, is that it's overpriced for what you get and has been surpassed by other, newer designs that sell at or near its price point.
MeatInStereo
Can outrun 80% of snakes
Hahaha....Exactly....
flavio81
Turntable technician
And I think Ivor knew that- because advertising is often about just creating a market, where there was none. I know a little bit about that, at least. I'll just use the Vodka market as an example, as I worked on a Vodka account. There's not really any such thing as 'high end' Vodka. You're buying a nicer bottle, that somebody decided to say was filled with better vodka. One of the leading 'high end' Vodkas, was a run of the mill vodka that took off when given a new name and fancy bottle.
Obviously I don't think the whole 'high end' is just a label. But I do think that it walks a ridiculous slope of only liking what is fashionable in the industry, and completely dismissing, in a very Linn-Like and seemingly Linn-created fashion, other viable solutions. Such as embracing modern tube amps and dismissing rebuilt vintage ones, as if there's some magic dust in the new circuit. As much as I defend the high-end, I think that thinking its completely defensible is worse. It's filled with hypocrisy and arbitrary tastes for one type of gear over another, and that even varies from region to region.
The attitude that Linn embraces, is why I find most 'high end' circled to be about the most distasteful places I can imagine. My opinions, for example, seem to not fit in well at AK but my only other alternative is a "high end" forum filled with Linny-like attitude. No thank you. I'd rather constantly be at odds with a group, than to sit neck deep in complete BS, which is what I think most high-end forums are full of. Yet it didn't have to be that way. There could have just been good gear and bad gear. Instead of 'high end' and God-approved products like the LP-12.
Give me $20k, and the last turntable I'd buy is an LP-12- Because as soon as I buy it, they'd try to get me to upgrade it. Its perfect! Except that it needed 30 years of upgrades after it was said to be so...
I'd save my money and buy a Well Tempered Amadeus, a VPI Classic 3, or maybe a Feickert Analog table, because I fell in love with the sound of one once. Or an SME product...
Agree, totally agree.
Marketing is the enemy of actual substance and value. If someone gave me a nice LP12, surely i would keep it and upgrade it, but i would do the upgrades the DIY way. Because sadly most "high-end" manufacturers want you to pay 20% for the actual product and 80% for the hype, and there are many examples, how about the $500 Oppo CD player modified and rebadged as a $10000 Ayre DX-5. Or Clearaudio selling a glorified Audio-Technica MM cartridge for much more.
And just as George Lucas knew the real money from Star Wars was in selling the little toys, lunch boxes et al, mr Tiefenbrum knew the real profit was in selling the upgrades for a lot of money and even more hype.
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flavio81
Turntable technician
They do not, and when they are identical, the appropiate patent was licensed.
The Sony direct drive motor (AC, copper rotor) is very different from the Technics one (magnet rotor), which is different from the Dual one (special bifilar coils). Which are different from the alternative Technics direct drive motor (star coils in groups of 22.5°), which is licensed from the Hitachi "Unitorque" design. Control systems are different too with Technics and Pioneer typically using a maltese cross reluctor, Sony typically using a magnetic tape head, etc.
BUT i do get your point.
MeatInStereo
Can outrun 80% of snakes
My LP12 just became the Bose of the turntable world... 
The quicksand here is falling into an opinion where you think ALL of the gear that is labeled high end is like this. Its not. The trick is to figure out who are the passionate creators, and who are the passionate hypemen.
rcspkramp
Super Member
No doubt that the LP-12 is a great turntable. I sold them when they first came into the country. If memory serves it was $359 without arm. We usually put either Grace, Decca or Keith Monks arms on them and got great results. I think they get a bad rap because of two things, their shameless and arrogant self-promotion and their constantly rising prices without performance gains to justify those increased prices. All that being said, LP-12s have been in and out of my system for decades and I respect the product.
flavio81
Turntable technician
Yes, i think you are right.
Let's not forget that the Linn upgrade process is no different to the more normal new product every couple of years approach which every other manufacturer does. The big plus is that if you had a 1980s vintage Linn you can bring it up to current spec and its value will increase accordingly. To do so with other brands you'd be on your 20th turntable.
The difference that I see in Linn, is that it seems to be a whole part of the ownership experience, for better or worse (some seem to actually enjoy it, which is completely foreign to my way of thinking, but I can't argue with enjoyment wherever its found). It seems that its just an expected thing that in a year, your table will be surpassed by the next goofily named tweak. "I had the Lingo but the Lorax came out, so now I have to get that and then replace the Looptyloos if I get to it. Then I just need $5000 more dollars so I can go all they way up to the Circus Maximus bearing mod".
. Hey, if it makes somebody happy, its just money. We all need a hobby.Maybe Linn can use my marketing expertise in naming their tweaks. Other suggestions:
"The Fruitloop"- orange belt. Makes the speed .0001 more accurate. $100.
"The Lapis Lazului"- New jeweled bearing made of something besides Lapis Lazului, but we liked that it started with "L".
"The Leapfrog"- New springs. 167% more bouncy but also with 166% more damping- resulting in 1% more PRAT.
marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
I don't disagree with this, and there certainly are cases, which you can see if you frequent the appropriate forums, where experts are flown out just to setup the turntables.
It's also obviously true that the current Linn price for a fully optioned-up turntable is aimed squarely at the mega rich, but there is also the budget version, not optioned up, which sells at around the 2000€ mark, and,for the money, you're still getting a magic (pun intended) turntable but with a lesser arm, cartridge and power supply.
Let's also not forget that the Linn was a good price when it started, not more than the Technics SL-10 when it came out, and only in comparatively recent years has the price escalated.
In the end, I can buy a Renault Clio for 9000€. I can also buy the Gordini sport version for 30000€. Is Linn doing anything different, in terms of marketing? I'm not saying I'm condoning the options game, just that it is an accepted business model. Also, I suspect the market for Linn, as with any turntable, has diminished so much that economies of scale no longer apply, which forces the price up.
At 2000€ the Linn Majik is not by any means a bad buy.
It's also obviously true that the current Linn price for a fully optioned-up turntable is aimed squarely at the mega rich, but there is also the budget version, not optioned up, which sells at around the 2000€ mark, and,for the money, you're still getting a magic (pun intended) turntable but with a lesser arm, cartridge and power supply.
Let's also not forget that the Linn was a good price when it started, not more than the Technics SL-10 when it came out, and only in comparatively recent years has the price escalated.
In the end, I can buy a Renault Clio for 9000€. I can also buy the Gordini sport version for 30000€. Is Linn doing anything different, in terms of marketing? I'm not saying I'm condoning the options game, just that it is an accepted business model. Also, I suspect the market for Linn, as with any turntable, has diminished so much that economies of scale no longer apply, which forces the price up.
At 2000€ the Linn Majik is not by any means a bad buy.
Won't work....you have no "K" in any of those
Oh no, I forgot about their spelling abuses! "The Leapfrog" should be "The Leepphrogk (silent K)" and "The Fruitloop" should be "Tha FrootKlupe". Looks like my days at Linn Marketing are numbered
. (Avole, I agree that the entry level Linn is not a bad table, FWIW. Its just not the 'only' table, which they seem to have a problem with, even today, when I go to one of their dealers).
(un)interesting aside: I'm actually doing 'real' marketing/advertising in between these posts. Some sort of irony in there.
tubeornotube
Well-Known Member
The Linn was the first 'audiophile'turntable for others to aspire to or to better..
It is well known that many turntables that came after the Sondek bettered it in at least one facet of performance or sound..
The Oracle Deplhi,Michell Gyrodeck and Roksan Xerxes to name a few..All bettered the Linn to some degree leading to the many expensive upgrades to keep the Linn up to pace with those and newer designs..
Would I own a Linn?..Yes a vintage one maybe with the right arm like a Fidelity Research but I wouldn't pay the current price for a Linn..
Did it deserve the criticism it received for the 40 years it has been around??
Of course it did,it was the design to reach for,the one to compare to,but then again how many products have lasted this long
Matt.......tubeornotube
It is well known that many turntables that came after the Sondek bettered it in at least one facet of performance or sound..
The Oracle Deplhi,Michell Gyrodeck and Roksan Xerxes to name a few..All bettered the Linn to some degree leading to the many expensive upgrades to keep the Linn up to pace with those and newer designs..
Would I own a Linn?..Yes a vintage one maybe with the right arm like a Fidelity Research but I wouldn't pay the current price for a Linn..
Did it deserve the criticism it received for the 40 years it has been around??
Of course it did,it was the design to reach for,the one to compare to,but then again how many products have lasted this long
Matt.......tubeornotube
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
I think the Linn LP-12 superiority attitude of many dealers and the incessant upgrades foisted on many an owner, does much more to make people turn away from Linn. The LP-12 is actually a nice table in real life.
Speaking from my experiences in the UK the hype & pressure that came from Ivor onto the hifi dealers was quite extraordinary. (other elitist brands also exist)
If you found yourself in one of those "persuaded" dealerships then auditioning equipment was not the enjoyable experience it should have been.
I always voted with my feet & walked out & have never bought into their product &
I doubt that I ever will. For me all their hype was (is) an exercise in negative marketing.
If you found yourself in one of those "persuaded" dealerships then auditioning equipment was not the enjoyable experience it should have been.
I always voted with my feet & walked out & have never bought into their product &
I doubt that I ever will. For me all their hype was (is) an exercise in negative marketing.
marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
To the first part of the question....In a word, Yes. Allow me to throw "Linn Money" at an XA, and then the answer is..........no. But that XA wouldn't resemble the original much. The LP12 is an XA with a lot of money thrown at it. Some even stuck
Pio1980
AK Member
To the first part of the question....In a word, Yes. Allow me to throw "Linn Money" at an XA, and then the answer is..........no. But that XA wouldn't resemble the original much. The LP12 is an XA with a lot of money thrown at it. Some even stuck
So, what would it cost an AR owner to achieve an upper-end level of performance?
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