Why is Linn lp 12 so much criticized?
- Thread starter vinny55
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FWIW, I've not had too many bad experiences at dealers- but the few that I have had, have all been at Linn dealers.
Whereas the biggest bargains I've had have all been from Linn dealers.
To be honest, the quality of service from higher end dealers tends to be more to do with the norms of the country you happen to be in than what they carry.
In Finland all are relaxed, casual and let you borrow equipment to test for weeks on end. Germany is also quite relaxed, but prefers you to listen on site, for which they clear a room especially for the gear you nominate. France doesn't trust you to take equipment home but you can listen in the shop for days if you like while they ply you with coffee. Dealers in the south of the UK let you borrow providing you pay full RRP up front, assuming they think you're a serious buyer. If they don't, you'll be met with a string of excuses as to why they can't help you.
To be honest, the quality of service from higher end dealers tends to be more to do with the norms of the country you happen to be in than what they carry.
In Finland all are relaxed, casual and let you borrow equipment to test for weeks on end. Germany is also quite relaxed, but prefers you to listen on site, for which they clear a room especially for the gear you nominate. France doesn't trust you to take equipment home but you can listen in the shop for days if you like while they ply you with coffee. Dealers in the south of the UK let you borrow providing you pay full RRP up front, assuming they think you're a serious buyer. If they don't, you'll be met with a string of excuses as to why they can't help you.
dread31
Addicted Member
I've only heard an LP12 once. No doubt a fine turntable, but at $1,200 used, I passed.
Having said that, I think Linn owners suffer the same onus that us McIntosh owners do. Tell people your a Mac owner, even in the most humble of tones, and they treat you as if you're an audio snob. No, I just happen to like the product and wanted to support an American brand. All Linn and McIntosh owners are no more "audio snobs" than all Harley-Davidson owners are all criminal scumbags. It's an unfortunate stigma, but that's all it is.
Dave
Having said that, I think Linn owners suffer the same onus that us McIntosh owners do. Tell people your a Mac owner, even in the most humble of tones, and they treat you as if you're an audio snob. No, I just happen to like the product and wanted to support an American brand. All Linn and McIntosh owners are no more "audio snobs" than all Harley-Davidson owners are all criminal scumbags. It's an unfortunate stigma, but that's all it is.
Dave
I'm surprised by this because I never saw their advertising or promotional materials in this way. In fact, I found Linn's approach highly refreshing because they grounded claims for improved performance in down-to-earth principles of precision manufacture and intelligent design, and in stressing that the only person's opinion that counted was the customer's. Paraphrasing from their literature, there were two main points that influenced my decision to buy my first LP12 in 1985:
1. precision manufacturing
The only musical signal sent to the phono stage results from the relative movement of the stylus to the cartridge body (well, spurious internal movement of a cartridge's generating elements can also result in lost information, but I thought I'd stick to basic turntable components here). There is information in the record groove smaller than a micron, so any slop in the main bearing, tonearm bearing, cartridge to headshell and headshell to tonearm connections, etc. etc., even of as little as a millionth of an inch, results in musical information being lost.
2. competent design
This precision mechanical relationship between platter, tonearm and cartridge needs to be effectively isolated from both motor vibrations and the outside world.
A glance at various high quality turntables shows that there is more than one way to design them, but building any of them requires a precision that is expensive. For example, the spindle alone on an LP12 was said to go through 14 separate machining and hardening processes.
At the time I first auditioned a Linn, I was actually shopping for an amplifier. I had recently purchased a lower-end Thorens (TD146) and thought it was all I needed. The Linn dealer blocked out multiple private auditioning sessions in which I could compare my turntable against the Linn (with Basik Plus tonearm), and he was happy to mount up any cartridges of my choice to both 'tables. This was even though he knew I couldn't afford to buy the Linn right away (I think it was six months or more after my first audition that I finally bought something from them).
Linn and their dealers also stressed the importance of determining your own level of musical expectation, and that it can be different for different people. If an LP12 with Basik Plus arm, Basik cartridge, and the little Naim Nait integrated driving inexpensive bookshelf speakers makes you happy, then that's all you need--spending more is wasting money. Though I knew I wanted a bit higher level of performance, I started with this system so I could enjoy my records, and the dealer offered later trade-in options that made upgrading financially painless.
I eventually ended up with an all-Linn system (LP12, LK1/LK2, Saras) that kept me happy for over two decades (when components, starting with the LK1's control panel circuits, then a driver in one of the Saras, began to fail and were no longer supported by Linn service). I upgraded to an Ittok arm, but never felt a need for the Ekos; I wanted the Cirkus upgrade, but didn't need the Lingo or Keel. There was never any pressure or jokes about not having the best, just offers of demonstrations so I could hear the difference for myself and respect for my choices about what mattered to me.
After a brief flirtation with all American products (spurred on by our President's stimulus spending plea a few years ago), I'm now between systems and starting to consider the best choices for my current life circumstances. I may not end up with another all-Linn system, but I have nothing but respect for the company, their products and their dealers.
Nice post!:thmbsp:
ddarch
Super Member
Spurred on by this ever lengthening thread, yesterday I hooked up a Linn combination I have on hand: 80's LP-12, Mose-Hercules II, SME M2-9 on rosewood armboard, and Dynavector 20X2 Low. (And Bren Weight) I played a combination of jazz, classical, and rock lps through the same system I operate my main table, a Merrill Heirloom with Ortofon RS212D, and Benz Micro Ruby 2 Wood. This was my first "head to head" of the Linn with my main table for an extended session over a wide range of lps I know very well. There were absolutely no areas of weakness in this Linn combination, and that was with the cartridge new out of the box! I listen to high end vintage turntables for a living now, and the Linn LP-12 belongs up there SOLIDLY with the best of these suspended subchassis belt-driven tables: the Merrill Heirloom, Thorens TD-125/126, AR ES-1/ETL-1, and Thorens TD-160 Super. So, despite negative experiences with dealers and negative connotations toward their marketing in general, when you come right down to the turntable itself, it is a well made machine capable of exquisite reproduction from the most challenging grooves.
Dave
Dave
marc mc
Super Member
I lived around the corner from a Linn dealer for years. The owners were personal friends of mine and had moved to Canada from the UK where they had also run a HiFi shop.
The LP-12 is a very influential piece of kit. The Linn/Grace/Supex combo successfully demonstrated the source first position. While at the same time the Linn dogma combined with Ivor's combative mentality divided much of the audio world.
The LP-12 sold in huge numbers but is far from the best turntable. It was very successfully marketed and a cult like lore and persona was as much a part of the sales campaign as sound. I heard many tables that did many things far better from companies that did not have a prayer at dethroning the LP-12.
Marc mc
The LP-12 is a very influential piece of kit. The Linn/Grace/Supex combo successfully demonstrated the source first position. While at the same time the Linn dogma combined with Ivor's combative mentality divided much of the audio world.
The LP-12 sold in huge numbers but is far from the best turntable. It was very successfully marketed and a cult like lore and persona was as much a part of the sales campaign as sound. I heard many tables that did many things far better from companies that did not have a prayer at dethroning the LP-12.
Marc mc
marc mc
Super Member
The problem with the LP12 is not if it's a good turntable or not. It clearly is a good turntable. I used to sit through the demos all the time. I saw the faces of those who heard it for the first time. I heard it defeat lesser tables played through great speakers while it played through basic speakers. That is what put me in the source first camp
The problem was the claims Linn made about it being the best or finest TT in the world. When my ears clearly told me that the Alphason Sonata, mapelnoll, Pink Triangle, Roksan Xerxes and Oracle Delphi were far better.
I notice on AK that the original AR and Thorens TD's are seen on more of a par with the LP-12! I'm sorry but no way.
Marc mc
[
The problem was the claims Linn made about it being the best or finest TT in the world. When my ears clearly told me that the Alphason Sonata, mapelnoll, Pink Triangle, Roksan Xerxes and Oracle Delphi were far better.
I notice on AK that the original AR and Thorens TD's are seen on more of a par with the LP-12! I'm sorry but no way.
Marc mc[/QUOTE]
you mean linn lp 12 is superior than any Ar or thorens 124?
The problem was the claims Linn made about it being the best or finest TT in the world. When my ears clearly told me that the Alphason Sonata, mapelnoll, Pink Triangle, Roksan Xerxes and Oracle Delphi were far better.
I notice on AK that the original AR and Thorens TD's are seen on more of a par with the LP-12! I'm sorry but no way.
Marc mc[/QUOTE]
you mean linn lp 12 is superior than any Ar or thorens 124?
marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
Hi Dave, I agree completely with your post, the LP12 is a fine table. Other than the M/S and ETL-1 you mention the rest of them do not command in the open market what the LP12 of similar build does. So it would appear the title of this thread is backwards. :yes:
flavio81
Turntable technician
A stock Thorens TD-125MKII has nothing to envy on a stock Linn LP-12. In fact a stock 125 already includes an ultra clean electronic power source. Which would be a costly add-on for the LP12.
Now, note that i wouldn't say a stock 125 is "clearly superior" or perhaps even "superior". I'd say they are comparable.
Big Bill
Summertime Rolls.....
Have you ever owned/auditioned any of these tables before?
This is the type of myopia that turns many off from the brand. Go back and read through this thread- there are very few, if any, mentions of the LP-12 as being less than good, and many mentions of it being very good. But some people have said its not the best, and Linn people always read that as saying its not good. Who has said that? Saying it may not be the best, is not saying that its not a great table.
And that is precisely why some people hate the brand. If you even dare mention that its not the best, it comes across as an opinion that you're not allowed to have. My reasons for not wanting one have nothing to do with the performance of the turntable. I don't even know what the current standard is, I haven't heard the up to date version of it. It could sound like angels having sex and I still won't want one. Not because its popular but because I despise the whole attitude it seems to represent. The whole 'my way or the highway', 'you have to like this or you're not in the hobby' type feeling.
flavio81
Turntable technician
:yes: My view too. For an example look at one of the comments above:
I notice on AK that the original AR and Thorens TD's are seen on more of a par with the LP-12! I'm sorry but no way.
"No way".
Note that this comes from a Lenco-phile, the Lenco being an example of a turntable that was previously not taken seriously. It wouldn't surprise me if 10 years ago somebody wrote in a forum: "I notice on AK that the original Lenco idlers are seen on more of a par with the LP-12! I'm sorry but no way."
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