Why is the AR 3A so desirable?

[frommerstop]

Back in a the day, when I was running AR3as, I was using Dynaco ST-70s, and they were fine with that. I don’t see where all this “they need large SS amps stuff comes from. I had four AR3as with JanZen tweeters running off four Dynaco ST-70s for several years before going to AR9s, and they did just fine.

 

[Bodyblue]

Back in a the day, when I was running AR3as, I was using Dynaco ST-70s, and they were fine with that. I don’t see where all this “they need large SS amps stuff comes from. I had four AR3as with ZansZen tweeters running off four Dynaco ST-70s for several years before going to AR9s, and they did just fine.

I see comments like that all the time, and not just about the AR3s. Yes, back when those were new the smaller amps did drive them adequately. But, as with many acoustic suspension speakers, more power means better sound in a lot of cases. Low and flea watt amps can and do sound fine with many speakers. Fellow AKer and all around fine human being @Lavane loaned me his flea watt spud tube amp a few months ago to see if I liked it. I used my easy to drive Marantz Imperial 6s and used a cell phone to directly drive them. I was astounded at how nice it sounded at low to medium volumes. But if when I tried to get some higher levels out of it, it ran out of breath pretty fast. The Imperials are very easy to drive. When I tried it with my set of rebuilt Large Advents it fell on its face at anything other than background levels.....the same as with my KLH 6s. Sure, it worked well enough for low levels of jazz type music, but just did not have anything close to the power required for dynamic music at medium levels.

Modern SS power amps (or even amps from the 70-80s) bring some older speakers alive like they were never were with lower watt tube amps.

 

[jlovda]

But if when I tried to get some higher levels out of it, it ran out of breath pretty fast.....

I would venture that for a large majority of listeners, their ears would run out of breath first. I cannot tell you the number of times I would listen to someone's setup where they would crank it up to painful levels, turn to me with a smile on their face and then turn it down to normal levels thirty seconds later. What was their point?

 

[Pio1980]

I would venture that for a large majority of listeners, their ears would run out of breath first. I cannot tell you the number of times I would listen to someone's setup where they would crank it up to painful levels, turn to me with a smile on their face and then turn it down to normal levels thirty seconds later. What was their point?

It's like that "make you crap your pants" car demo ride reckless folks give.

 

[frommerstop]

I see comments like that all the time, and not just about the AR3s. Yes, back when those were new the smaller amps did drive them adequately. But, as with many acoustic suspension speakers, more power means better sound in a lot of cases. Low and flea watt amps can and do sound fine with many speakers. Fellow AKer and all around fine human being @Lavane loaned me his flea watt spud tube amp a few months ago to see if I liked it. I used my easy to drive Marantz Imperial 6s and used a cell phone to directly drive them. I was astounded at how nice it sounded at low to medium volumes. But if when I tried to get some higher levels out of it, it ran out of breath pretty fast. The Imperials are very easy to drive. When I tried it with my set of rebuilt Large Advents it fell on its face at anything other than background levels.....the same as with my KLH 6s. Sure, it worked well enough for low levels of jazz type music, but just did not have anything close to the power required for dynamic music at medium levels.

Modern SS power amps (or even amps from the 70-80s) bring some older speakers alive like they were never were with lower watt tube amps.

There’s a big difference between a 35 wpc push-pull amp and a tiny single ended. Unless you’re talking about terrible amp loads, like an Apogee or something, a good 35 watts is plenty to make good music to moderate, even rather high levels.

Now, if you’re talking concert levels, THEN you may indeed need more, and I’m of the opinion that you can never have too much reserve power. That’s why I use large SS amps these days, but too often it seems folks assume 100+wpc is the minimum needed to get good sound from average speakers, and on that I disagree.

 

[Bodyblue]

I would venture that for a large majority of listeners, their ears would run out of breath first. I cannot tell you the number of times I would listen to someone's setup where they would crank it up to painful levels, turn to me with a smile on their face and then turn it down to normal levels thirty seconds later. What was their point?

Maybe, but not in this case. And turning a system up to show what it can do seems to be the point when demonstrating a system. Not sure why you cant understand that point, but ok.

 

[Onebean]

@Bodyblue I'm with @jlovda on this. I don't select my gear based on how loud it will play. I select my gear based on how it reproduces music at the moderately loud levels (80-90db) that I listen every day. I see no reason to turn a system up to "demonstrate it". I demonstrate my system at the levels I normally listen at. I was at a very upscale audio shop in SoCal a few years back. I went there to demo a specific speaker. When the salesman started the track, and then cranked it to like 105db, I was immediately uninterested. He has a grin on his face like I was going to be really impressed. I wasn't...

 

[Bodyblue]

There’s a big difference between a 35 wpc push-pull amp and a tiny single ended. Unless you’re talking about terrible amp loads, like an Apogee or something, a good 35 watts is plenty to make good music to moderate, even rather high levels.

Now, if you’re talking concert levels, THEN you may indeed need more, and I’m of the opinion that you can never have too much reserve power. That’s why I use large SS amps these days, but too often it seems folks assume 100+wpc is the minimum needed to get good sound from average speakers, and on that I disagree.

I have a set of recapped with rebuilt woofers, Original Large Advents. I also have a set KLH 6s with fully rebuilt woofers with modern foam and a set of Polk Monitor 10s. Especially with the Monitor 10s, lower volume bass is better at the same spl with a more powerful amp. And the same is true for all of the other Acoustic Suspension Nova6s, 7Bs and Optimus 27s I have. The easier to drive, the less noticeable the difference is. For my Imperial 6s, the 22 wpc Realistic STA 82 does a great job. For the more difficult to drive units like the 8in two way Nova 6s 22wpc sounds nice, but using my Marantz 16 at 80wpc makes them sparkle. Yes lower watt good quality amps sound just fine. But with the speakers and amps I own, most sound better at lower volumes with more powerful amps.

 

[Bodyblue]

@Bodyblue I'm with @jlovda on this. I don't select my gear based on how loud it will play. I select my gear based on how it reproduces music at the moderately loud levels (80-90db) that I listen every day. I see no reason to turn a system up to "demonstrate it". I demonstrate my system at the levels I normally listen at. I was at a very upscale audio shop in SoCal a few years back. I went there to demo a specific speaker. When the salesman started the track, and then cranked it to like 105db, I was immediately uninterested. He has a grin on his face like I was going to be really impressed. I wasn't...

I dont by gear on how loud it will play either. But I have found with my speakers that more powerful units tend to sound better even at lower levels than amps with less power.

And what if found silly is that he said he could not understand why people turn up their systems when showing others how it sounds. I usually dont do that but I certainly understand why others do. It was more virtue signal than real question I believe.

When I finally got my Monitor 10s together last week a younger friend and his wife (he is a big bass head) came over to hear them. He wanted to have his hair blown back so I blew it back for him. I cant stand it for more than a second that loud so it was a short time but he loved it.

For such a nuanced subject like audio, there is huge lack of understanding that just because one prefers amps more on the powerful side, then that person must listen at extreme levels.

 

[quiet]

Power is capability and versatility. I want both.
If a person is nice enough to demonstrate the extremes of their system for me that's a good thing. Then I know what that system will do with out the need to own it to find out.

 

[gkimeng]

The biggest driver behind the call for higher amplifier power is probably the increase in source dynamic range over the past 50 years. In the 1960s, FM, tape and LPs were compressed down to anywhere from 40-60 dB. Today's digital music and HT content push that to 90 dB and there's less compression being applied. Peak amplifier output at the same average room SPL can be 10X or more what it would have been 50 years ago.

 

[johnjhazel]

I apologize for being lazy and not doing research. Are the HiVi recommended because they are REALLY good or because their mounting plate fits nicely in the baffle cutout and they don't sound bad?

View attachment 2330536

They fit and they don't sound bad.

 

[johnjhazel]

I have a set of recapped with rebuilt woofers, Original Large Advents. I also have a set KLH 6s with fully rebuilt woofers with modern foam and a set of Polk Monitor 10s. Especially with the Monitor 10s, lower volume bass is better at the same spl with a more powerful amp. And the same is true for all of the other Acoustic Suspension Nova6s, 7Bs and Optimus 27s I have. The easier to drive, the less noticeable the difference is. For my Imperial 6s, the 22 wpc Realistic STA 82 does a great job. For the more difficult to drive units like the 8in two way Nova 6s 22wpc sounds nice, but using my Marantz 16 at 80wpc makes them sparkle. Yes lower watt good quality amps sound just fine. But with the speakers and amps I own, most sound better at lower volumes with more powerful amps.

I agree. There are instantaneous peaks in music that draw large amounts of power. A high powered amp will give a more dynamic presentation.

 

[E-Stat]

Henry Kloss might be rolling over in his grave knowing that many discovered long ago the value of high powered amps driving Advents of a similar breed.

A reviewer friend wrote an oft quoted review of double (and triple) Advents driven by a Phase Linear 700. Yes, he smoked a tweeter or two in so doing as he was definitely a “power user”. One of the features of the New Advent was ferrofluid cooled tweeters which ended their warranty challenge.

Decades later, I use a 300 watt/channel Ncore amp in the garage driving New Advents. What I perceive with that level of available power is what HP used to refer as “authority” - a sense of ease coupled with dynamic output.

Some of my 24 bit content benefits nicely over what a previous 100 watt/channel Threshold amp could deliver.

 

[frankmarsi]

A brief personal history once again on a ‘hi-fi’ forum.
I started my long HI-FI journey with a Dynaco ST-35 WPC tube amp with speakers I made with parts bought on “Radio-Row” in NYC in 1967. By mid-1971, I was already an AR-3a owner and attempted to use that little amp. Oh boy, was I wrong so, in early 1972 I built the Dynaco ST-120 at 60WPC. Of course for a newbie that I was, it was a revelation from the little tube amp I had. However, with-in a short time it was easy to understand I was continuing the starvation diet I had these speakers on.
So, I worked and saved and continued to read the big-3 magazines over and over again and found myself being pulled into the ‘High-Wattage Wars’ that were raging at full force in that era of 1970-78 and into the future. The move was towards high power because availability of high-capacity transistors was being born. Naturally, I went for the latest and most influential at that time and Phase Linear was taking front and center stage along with SAE and a few others.
In mid 1974 I purchased a PL-400 which I still have though it’s in dry dock.
I power my present system with two others, the PL-700 Series II and they’re perfect for four AR-LST speakers, see previous page. Gutsy, yet with finesse, deep sound-staging, punchy and yet offer up loads of delicacy, detail and presence with bucket loads of transparency.

Ever since I started frequenting forums on the web I’ve met up with mostly opposition and have been dismissed many times by folks who tend to fight tooth and nail claiming high-power is not the ticket. According to my longtime and deep listening sessions of AR speakers since my beginnings, I learned to not pay attention to those folks who don’t agree with my history and learned knowledge through out all these years. Oh sure, the occasional tweeter blows but, replacement is par for the course just like replacing worn tires or worn shoes.

If one does not appreciate high-power with inefficient speakers like AR’s, so be it as they may not be true-blue hi-fi folk. I’m having all of the fun in listening they don’t. They just don’t understand unless they were to buy into high-power themselves in the same way one might not desire a luxury car unless they had one and enjoyed it also.

There’s even a post here by some one who opposed my posts on using high-power only a couple of years ago. He's changed a bit and now, he touts high power as if he knew all along. He more than likely didn’t but, he has an idea now.
FM

 

[Bodyblue]

I have seen over and over on here those that use flea-watt amps also use horn tweeters for the most part. There is nothing worse on my ears than any sort of horn driver. The tiny spud amp I talked about above just cant handle speakers that are much under 93db sensitive with any great fidelity. Acoustic suspension speakers simply sound better with more power.....yes, from top to bottom. At lower volumes not nearly the difference but the difference gets bigger as the volume goes up. I am not sure just what about that pisses so many off. Again, I never listen at very loud levels but even at the moderate levels I listen to I notice a difference........sometimes not huge, but a definite difference.

 

[quiet]

More power Scotty! We need more Power!

 

[johnjhazel]

I didn't purchase my AR 3a's until I found a suitable power amp: a NAD C272.

 

[THF2]

A brief history once again on a ‘hi-fi’ forum.
I started my long HI-FI journey with a Dynaco ST-35 WPC tube amp with speakers I made with parts bought on “Radio-Row” in NYC in 1967. By mid-1971, I was already an AR-3a owner and attempted to use that little amp. Oh boy, was I wrong so, in early 1972 I built the Dynaco ST-120 at 60WPC. Of course for a newbie that I was, it was a revelation from the little tube amp I had. However, with-in a short time it was easy to understand I was continuing the starvation diet I had these speakers on.
So, I worked and saved and continued to read the big-3 magazines over and over again and found myself being pulled into the ‘High-Wattage Wars’ that were raging at full force in that era of 1970-78 and into the future. The move was towards high power because availability of high-capacity transistors was being born. Naturally, I went for the latest and most influential at that time and Phase Linear was taking front and center stage along with SAE and a few others.
In mid 1974 I purchased a PL-400 which I still have though it’s in dry dock.
I power my present system with two others, the PL-700 Series II and they’re perfect for four AR-LST speakers, see previous page. Gutsy, yet with finesse, deep sound-staging, punchy and yet offer up loads of delicacy, detail and presence with bucket loads of transparency.

Ever since I started frequenting forums on the web I’ve met up with mostly opposition and have been dismissed many times by folks who tend to fight tooth and nail claiming high-power is not the ticket. According to my longtime and deep listening sessions of AR speakers since my beginnings, I learned to not pay attention to those folks who don’t agree with my history and learned knowledge through out all these years. Oh sure, the occasional tweeter blows but, replacement is par for the course just like replacing worn tires or worn shoes.

If one does not appreciate high-power with inefficient speakers like AR’s, so be it as they may not be true-blue hi-fi folk. I’m having all of the fun in listening they don’t. They just don’t understand unless they were to buy into high-power themselves in the same way one might not desire a luxury car unless they had one and enjoyed it also.

There’s even a post here by some one who opposed my posts on using high-power only a couple of years ago. He's changed a bit and now, he touts high power as if he knew all along. He more than likely didn’t but, he has an idea now.
FM

@frankmarsi is spot on in his view as is @Bodyblue and @E-Stat.

This is less about cranking it up to impress the “whoever’s”. It is really about giving a set of inefficient speakers some “breathing” room where they can demonstrate their true potential with the power to address the dynamic range of recorded music.

Think 1812 Overture. One does not have to have the volume cranked in order to enjoy this masterpiece. However, when the cannon shots appear, it’s really good to have the additional headroom to allow this to be enjoyed, even at low volumes.
Same would hold true for Pink Floyd’s “ Dark Side Of The Moon”

That said, there are those that will state that the volumes that they listen at simply do not warrant additional power over and above what they have. I get it and there’s no argument here as that will not be a fruitful discussion.

Rather, I am of the the mind that go more than you think you need. It won’t cost that much more but the headroom value that will be realized will be worth it.

Just say’n…

 

[Tom Brennan]

If you want realistic dynamics you won't get them from a small direct radiating speaker like an AR3 regardless of power applied--speaker compression will set in.