bergun
Well-Known Member
Good Point!!!
Why Our Hobby Won't Grow
- Thread starter carbonman
- Start date
Good Point!!!
mrt2
Super Member
Dreaming is what you are doing. The people who run companies that make products like Pioneer and Yamaha are not complete idiots. If they thought a they could make big bucks selling retro styled audio gear that is built to a high standard and sounded good, they would do it. But they don't.
I question the need for a high quality tuner for anyone these days, as commercial broadcast radio, at least for music programming, seems to be dying. I suspect that in a few years, most radio will be internet only.
There are companies that make high quality 2 channel, but they are not the big names of the 70s. Rather, they are niche players. If your hypothesis about building affordable high quality 2 channel audio were true, brands like Rega, Arcam, rotel, Outlaw Audio and Cambridge Audio would be household names, just as brands like Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer, and Sansui built their reputations in the 70s selling solidly built mid fi gear to the middle class. Of course, they are niche players, and these are the big boys of niche market high quality audio. These days the only ones who care about owning a decent stereo are enthusiasts who hang out on sites like this one.
Instead of looking backward, we need to look forward. The younger generation are not returning to physical mediums, even the venerable lp. The high end audio of the future, if there is a future, will be built around a high quality music server/DAC feeding some sort of powered speaker.
Vintage_Hi-F
Vintage Audio Geek
As a 21 year old and a vinyl collector I slightly disagree, while yes the younger generation of audiophiles do want Hi-Fi digital formats (FLAC, APE, and such) I know more than a few who not only collect vinyl (partially for the novelty even I'm guilty of that) but generally prefer its sound to most other digital alternatives and while I personally do not see any form of powered speakers Hi-Fi or not in mine or anyone I knows system at all I can kinda see where your coming from.
mrt2
Super Member
As nice as lps can sound with the right pressing/gear, it is a legacy format that can never return to its former glory. Why? The machines that make lps, the cutting lathes, are antiques (many are over 50 years old, and the newest are 35 years old), and are wearing out. I have not read a story of a single company investing in new lp making machinery. So they will go on making small numbers of lps so long as the ancient cutting lathes can be coaxed into continuing. But to expand and become a mainstream format again, they have to make new equipment to press the lps, and that hasn't happened.
Now maybe powered speakers will not happen, maybe they will. Almost all subwoofers are powered, so I kind of see the appeal for future generations that never owned a proper stereo, of just having a single music server/streaming music device feeding audiophile quality powered speakers.
mrt2
Super Member
Yes, they do.
That looks pretty cool. But is it selling? And where is it sold?
Vintage_Hi-F
Vintage Audio Geek
That's why you buy used, like a real collector.
Though I do understand that the format has it's draw back as well as it's pluses and that it does have a shelf life, though I will say i have an original pressing of The Jimi Hendrix Experience Are You Experienced from 67 that sound like new and probably has another 20 or 30 years of life in it as long as it's cared for so as a legacy format it does have some longevity.
This I can agree with the, I can see the general populous eating up powered speakers for one simple reason "Finally I don't need that big hulking Reciever to power my speakers" but for those of us that really care about High Fidelity I still think separate components are the way to go.
And hasn't Hi-Fi always been a niche market any ways even way back in the 70's? Cause if not I want to know were all the awesome gear went when your average joe blow decided that he should ditch that Harmon Kardon linear turntable and Sansui AU-919 with Acoustic Research/Klipsch/JBL/Altec speakers for a Bose wave music center.
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mrt2
Super Member
That's why you buy used, like a real collector.
Though I do understand that the format has it's draw back as well as it's pluses and that it does have a shelf life, though I will say i have an original pressing of The Jimi Hendrix Experience Are You Experienced from 67 that sound like new and probably has another 20 or 30 years of life in it as long as it's cared for so as a legacy format it does have some longevity.
This I can agree with the, I can see the general populous eating up powered speakers for one simple reason "Finally I don't need that big hulking Reciever to power my speakers" but for those of us that really care about High Fidelity I still think separate components are the way to go.
Of course, used lps are the way to go. I am trying to tie this into the question not of how we collectors can find good deals on used lps, but how the hobby can grow. I stated why the lp cannot be the basis for much growth in this audio hobby, whereas high quality digital files could be. There is no limit to the content that can be put on digital downloads, if you can get today's generation to accept the concept of paying for music.
A legacy format is a nice way to enjoy the music of the past, but it is not a viable way to distribute the vast majority of new music that gets released. hence, so long as you maintain your turntable (assuming they continue to make replacement parts, phono stages, and new carts and stylii) you should be able to enjoy your Hendrix lp for another 30 years or so, but don't count on everything released over the next 2 decades being issued on lp, it just makes no sense financially.
It's not at garage sales or thrift stores, that's for sure.
Adjusted for inflation, I bet it's not much more than something like the A-1 or CA-2020 sold for. The problem is, our hobby has seemingly split into those who pay really high dollar and those who won't pay more than $20, leaving a big gaping hole in the middle (but that hole has some nice gear like NAD and Cambridge Audio), right where a lot of people would come into the hobby.
I don't know how widely available it is, but Crutchfield sells it. Audio stores are filled with stereo gear, at least around here.
mrt2
Super Member
Of course seperates are the way to go, if you mean seperate preamp and mono blocks,
Has hi fi always been a niche market? Sort of but not really. Back in the 70s and 80s, a decent hi fi was, after the TV, considered an essential part of every family's home. This was an era before cable, video games and home computers. Not everyone had top quality gear, but everybody had something, even if it was just a humble all in one console or system with turntable built into the top of the receiver. It was common enough that most younger middle class teenagers owned or aspired to own at least a mid fi receiver, turntable and decent speakers. It was common enough that a working man like my grandfather, an immigrant who worked 2 jobs most of his life and never owned his own home was willing to spend $400 or $500 bucks (inflation adjusted to today about $1,500) in 1976 for a Marantz 2238b receiver to go with his Garrard turntable. It was common enough that my great uncle, not a rich man by any means, saved up so he could buy Mac separates in the late 70s.
Vintage_Hi-F
Vintage Audio Geek
This is something that I can say could be solved IF the record labels had actually worked with the technology (i.e making albums and individual saongs available online for download for a set fee) like iTunes, Bestbuy, Amazon, and so on have, but they've continued to stamp their feet and say no and their paying the price. I have no problem pay for my music but when I have to pay $15 bucks for a CD of an album that I can get on vinyl for $5 in excellent condition is were I see a problem, but again as a vinyl guy I'm in the minority.
Which actually equates to (in modern times) one of those best buy all in one "Hi-Fi" stereos made by Sanyo, Sony, and Sharp that most of my friends had growing up, I was the odd ball with a 1979 Quasar all in one console. But you would have to aspire to have a Middle level or High end system which I probably guess would be a priority for sum while others would be more than content with a Optimus all in one as apposed say a High end system.
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mrt2
Super Member
I am about 100 miles north of you, and audio stores are struggling up here. Lev's audio closed in the spring and someone told me Ultra Fidelis is on the ropes, so Audio emporium is the last one up here.
I almost agree, John. However, I would word it "those who are willing to pay really high dollar". I don't think all the people with the disposable cash and the urge necessarily do spend the high dollars, but the fact that they're willing will open up numerous possibilities.
mrt2
Super Member
I have found the tables have turned lately. I find cds for as little as $1 to $5, whereas lots of vinyl that was dirt cheap a few years ago has increased in cost due to the coolness factor, such that it isn't worth it to take a chance for $8 or $10 on a used lp when the cd is only $5.
Then again, I occasionally get a haul of lps for really cheap so it depends.
Chicago probably isn't representative then, as we at least have enough people to sustain a few decent stores, including ones that sell both new and vintage gear, and almost all stereo as opposed to HT.
The internet audio 'stores' seem to be doing OK. Music Direct is down the street from me (they also have a small showroom), and they actually do a really good job of customer service, better than any audio salon I've ever been in. I bought my turntable from them based solely on reviews and all the research I could do, and thankfully am not disappointed but that seems to be a huge problem...where to audition things in the age of the internet. People aren't just exposed to decent hi fi at Sears anymore.
Vintage_Hi-F
Vintage Audio Geek
You must have a lot of used Cd stores around you cause out hear we have to hit the best buy and they are that expensive. As far as vinyl's price is concerned I haven't noticed that change in price most of my Lp's range from $5 to maybe $10 bucks and then only if I'm in the city most of the places out by me I can walk out of the shop with a stack of 10 to 15 records for around $20 give or take a bit.
mrt2
Super Member
Actually, a lot of those consoles were not cheap, as they had furniture grade enclosures and weighed a ton. So even those were a larger financial commitment than today's little ipod docks, which are something someone picks up while running errands, along with picking up a dozen eggs and some milk. People actually paid repairmen to come out and fix these consoles.
My point/anecdote about my grandfather is that he was no audiophile, wasn't aspiring to anything other than that he wanted a receiver that sounded good and would last a long time, and the Marantz is what someone told him was good. And I don't think he is atypical.
Why do you think there is such a huge supply of those 70s era receivers. They sold millions of these things, and when the original owners passed on or moved, they didn't have room or want to deal with this kind of old school stereo.
mrt2
Super Member
Not a whole lot. There are 3 within close proximity on the east side of Milwaukee, and I always scope out half priced books, which also sells used cds. I noticed this price decline a few years ago and started buying, as I figured that whatever happens with music servers, and whatever improvements happen in file servers in the future, I can always rip the cds to a hard drive, either as uncompressed or lossless files.
As for getting lps for $1 or $2, I hear you on that, but I have, for the most part, stopped doing this as I have no more need or space for loads of lps that I will listen to maybe once, so I only do this once in awhile. Now a cd for $1 or $2 is another story, as it takes up less space, can be ripped to computer/mp3 player (even just one or two songs for the gym), and can be used for the car, so that $1 or $2 cd offers a lot of music entertainment possibilities for very little money and not much space.
The only exception to this is jazz lps, and old first or second pressings of 50 year old jazz lps are usually too expensive for my wallet.
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Vintage_Hi-F
Vintage Audio Geek
Again I have one of those consoles so I do no that not all of them were cheap and when I was growing up their was no such thing as an mp3 player we were just moving away from minidisc, this is what most of my friends had (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_4...eywords=bookshelf+stereo+systems&sprefix=book) and what I mean buy modern all in one "Hi-Fi' system. The Quasar and some of it's competitors are still better but it's the same idea.
I got that but he wanted something that sounded good, and he was told that it was a good piece of equipment. Like a lot of people now are told abot HT in a box or those "Hi-Fi" boombox's. Im deffinatly not comparing the marantz to a boombox cause that would be stupid.
Now while their are a lot of the silver age gear their is a larger percentage of Realistic (not bagging on it) and other lower end gear than the Higher End gear and that's more or less some thing that can be mapped to day more people have those HT in a box type receiver than a mid/high end Reciever plus most of the stuff now is disposable.
Though I will admit you do make some good point and I tip my hat to you sir.
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I don't think the sound quality of today's HT receivers is any less than the '70s all in one systems or consoles (at least the solid state ones), and a lot of people have HT. And even back in the '70s, for every Marantz separates system there was a Zenith with a turntable mounted on top. I won't argue that it was more mainstream back them...it was. I remember enough about the '70s, and saw the gear being abandoned in the '80s, to realize that the hobby peaked. But I don't think it's dying, at all. I think the worst time was maybe the early part of this decade, before free mp3s ironically coerced companies to bring vinyl back. And I don't think downloads will kill it. As truly high resolution files become the norm, people will start to discover decent home systems again. I don't think we'll see the days of refrigerator sized speakers in every home again, but good quality but more conveniently sized systems will sell well.
People keep saying the kids don't know what good sound is...yet a lot of them are listening to lossless files on high quality headphones that blow away most vintage speakers as far as resolution. Music has become something more private to many people, and maybe they don't feel the need to impress their neighbors with the numbers of knobs their SX-1980 has.
People keep saying the kids don't know what good sound is...yet a lot of them are listening to lossless files on high quality headphones that blow away most vintage speakers as far as resolution. Music has become something more private to many people, and maybe they don't feel the need to impress their neighbors with the numbers of knobs their SX-1980 has.