Why Our Hobby Won't Grow

[marc mc]

I didn't have a decent record player until my Linn Axis about 8 years ago, but I've been collecting records for more than twice that long. You want to know why? Because I was more obsessed with music than gear, and had almost no budget because I was paying my way through college then grad school and spent my money flying to see my long distance girlfriend. We all have our priorities. Mine was girl/music/gear. I find this idea that somehow, somebody with little money isn't really enjoying music if they don't listen to it on a 'proper' audiophile approved turntable part of the reason this hobby isn't going to be growing beyond what it is

...a lot of people sense this snobbery directed towards them because their gear doesn't make the cut, whatever that is, so they don't go to the audio stores, and I don't blame them.

John, do you think thats new? When I was 18 I had about 600 albums and a plastic Sansui stereo with Sound Dynamic speakers. I stumbled into Arthur Salvatore's store and was exposed to good sound. Within a year I had a Thorens TT, Arcam amp and Paisley speakers. Back then audio stores had the kind of impact on lots of people. But those stores for the most part are gone. And I doubt very many young people are buying new systems from the stores that remain in the big cities.

FTR it used to be OK to call crap, crap. today it hurts peoples feelings or your accused of being a snob. Oh well whatever. I'm glad Arthur showed me that my system was crap because he lit a fire that still burns. I was at a friends the other day and I noticed he had a Transcriptor Skeleton TT and I asked him what he thought of it? He said "it's crap". I guess him and I both suck at the whole PC thing.

marc mc

 

[JohnVF]

John, do you think thats new? When I was 18 I had about 600 albums and a plastic Sansui stereo with Sound Dynamic speakers. I stumbled into Arthur Salvatore's store and was exposed to good sound. Within a year I had a Thorens TT, Arcam amp and Paisley speakers. Back then audio stores had the kind of impact on lots of people. But those stores for the most part are gone.

marc mc

This exposure to good sound is getting really hard to come by, that's for sure.

I think a lot of the stores that are left are not serving the growth of the hobby, they're catering to the upper end but not catering so much to people just getting in. Not all, but a lot of them.

I say this from the point of view of somebody who looks much younger than he is...I walk into stores and get completely ignored. Funny how at one store, after buying something almost every time I go in, I'm now their best friend now. If you aren't wearing the right watch or shoes at some of these places good luck getting a few questions answered. Heck, I was wearing the right watch and shoes and still got ignored. Sad that the best service I've gotten lately has been at Music Direct, who's 'showroom' isn't really even that, as they're almost entirely an online retailer. I see the stories about all the brick and mortar stores going under, but in many cases I think they dug their own graves.

 

[hammr7]

Blackfly,

I think you are hanging out in all the wrong places. From where I am sitting there seems to be an explosion in music appreciation. And a similar explosion in music making. At this point the only casualty seems to be the record industry. They haven't come to grips with how to market their products in the digital era. And while I will be the first to defend their right to get paid for every copy of their licensed materials, I will also be the first to complain about the horrendous quality of the source material they put out. I am not alone in this assessment, which is one reason why vinyl is making such a comeback.

And lest you misunderstand, EVERY digital format, whether standard CD wav recordings, or SACDs, or MP3s and MP4s for an Ipod, are all just digital files. As such, they can be burned to an optical disk, or copied to a flash drive, or saved on a hard drive. But where and how they are stored is meaningless. What is important is how much music information they contain, and what hardware components are used, or can be used, for playback.

Technology is quickly improving to the point where digital formats that meet or exceed the capabilities of the best master recording ever will become quite cost effective. Moore's Law will see to that. It is simply a matter of time before new digital audio standards formalize these capabilities.

Newer artists are already poised to take advantage, as they have with current technologies that let them replace a recording studio with their own laptop and stream new music instantly to their fans around the entire world. They are unencumbered by the business norms and commercial expectations of the recording industry.

What remains to be seen is how the recording industry adapts. Of greatest interest (to me) is how they handle their existing musical libraries. The recent Beatles CD releases showed there is a sizable market for quality digital products. These recording could have been released in even higher quality, except that the industry is still wed to the need for such content to be on a physical medium.

Regardless of what the recording industry does, I fully expect a large percentage of the Ipod nation will progress from earbuds and computer speakers to high quality audio equipment as their budgets and lifestyles allow. As long as their content files have the necessary musical details there will be both the need and the desire.

 

[Sam Cogley]

This exposure to good sound is getting really hard to come by, that's for sure.

I think a lot of the stores that are left are not serving the growth of the hobby, they're catering to the upper end but not catering so much to people just getting in. Not all, but a lot of them.

I say this from the point of view of somebody who looks much younger than he is...I walk into stores and get completely ignored. Funny how at one store, after buying something almost every time I go in, I'm now their best friend now. If you aren't wearing the right watch or shoes at some of these places good luck getting a few questions answered. Heck, I was wearing the right watch and shoes and still got ignored. Sad that the best service I've gotten lately has been at Music Direct, who's 'showroom' isn't really even that, as they're almost entirely an online retailer. I see the stories about all the brick and mortar stores going under, but in many cases I think they dug their own graves.

John, you're entirely right about salesperson perceptions. Funny story - I have a very nice watch that was an undergrad graduation present from my parents. While I was in grad school, it stopped running so I took it to the brand's local dealer for repair. The day I took it in was cold and rainy/sleeting/generally nasty, so I had on my typical "crappy day on campus" uniform - an old military coat, a rather frayed pair of jeans and a beat-up hat. When I walked in the sales guys, who always wore suits, gave me the weirdest look - until I pulled the watch out of my pocket and plunked it down on the display case. Their attitude did the fastest 180* I've ever seen. They snapped from being on the edge of tossing me out of the store to practically kissing my feet in about half of a second. Every time I dropped by after that their service was beyond reproach - no matter what I was wearing.

 

[carbonman]

And while your right that every generation has their "thing". austi15 I wish you could have seen what the "audio thing" was like in the 80's... And compared to that time, IMO audio is a shadow of it's former self.

marc mc

The 70's was even wilder. Np home theater but 4 channel reared its head and FTC power ratings took hold. It was a great time. Most of the best vintage comes from this decade - look how many Marantz receivers and Advent speakers are out there.

 

[andy]

...And lest you misunderstand, EVERY digital format, whether standard CD wav recordings, or SACDs, or MP3s and MP4s for an Ipod, are all just digital files. As such, they can be burned to an optical disk, or copied to a flash drive, or saved on a hard drive. But where and how they are stored is meaningless. What is important is how much music information they contain, and what hardware components are used, or can be used, for playback.

Technology is quickly improving to the point where digital formats that meet or exceed the capabilities of the best master recording ever will become quite cost effective. Moore's Law will see to that. It is simply a matter of time before new digital audio standards formalize these capabilities...

I wonder when (if) we will see high resolution digital files become available. SACD and DVD-A are hopelessly locked away behind layers of copy protection. You can't even play an SACD on a computer. Even if an audiophile iPod became available, there would be nothing to play on it.

 

[mrt2]

not even close to true - Just read through the forum and note how many people on here are looking for speaker advice because they dont have a dealer near them and order them over the internet.

Most people have never heard of Audiokarma. My wife's friend would not in a million years fork over over $1,500, based on what a stranger on an audio website said, though curiously, she might spend that kind of money to buy something out of a catalog. In this case, it was my recommendation plus actually hearing how good a modern bookshelf can sound (at the store) that sold her on these.

Also, no offense intended to Audiokarma, but I just went over to the speaker forum, and the clear majority (over 90%) of active discussions are about vintage speakers. I already explained how, due to space and design constraints, a restored set of vintage speakers was a non starter for this person. Remember, she has a pair of Vandersteens gathering dust in her basement, and was prepared to go with a lifestyle product until I pushed her to check out the local specialty audio store, which has since closed its doors.

 

[marc mc]

Most people have never heard of Audiokarma. My wife's friend would not in a million years fork over over $1,500, based on what a stranger on an audio website said,

FWIW most of the guys I read on the speaker forum won't fork over $150 on their own advice. And get mad when someone says it.

marc mc

 

[ke4mcl]

"..a lot of people sense this snobbery directed towards them because their gear doesn't make the cut, whatever that is, so they don't go to the audio stores, and I don't blame them."

yep, gotta agree with that. there's lots of snake oil and magic in this hobby but fortunately common sense prevails on this board which is why i hang here.

when i've had folks come over they generally fall into two groups, the guys that are impressed with all my vintage american gear and the ones that ask me why i dont have BLAHBLAH magical audio cable or BLAHBLAH 10 gauge power cable plugged into my 14 gauge fed outlet.

a newbie can be easily intimidated in certain circles by this hobby, specially if you walk into a hungry audio boutique. i have met quite a few "sleepers" in this hobby and i'll bet its because they are just tired of having some audiosnob putting down their gear.

 

[kaplang]

If it sounds good listen to it!

 

[vinyldavid]

And the kids today that are buying records are playing them on junk.

100% true. Many people just like vinyl for the cool factor and the status factor, not the sound....and could not care less.

 

[JohnVF]

100% true. Many people just like vinyl for the cool factor and the status factor, not the sound....and could not care less.

Or they simply don't know. I have a friend who wanders around Manhattan collecting records to play on one of those Crosley monstrosities. I had lunch with her and it came up, and I said "you know, those records can sound better than CDs" and she said "really?". It's not like it's common knowledge these days, and the attitude of dismissing them because they don't know is another thing killing this hobby.

Most young people that I know who collect vinyl are way more up with what's going on with new music than most audiophiles I know. And they buy vinyl because they love the music so much that they want some sort of tangible connection to it, not because it's 'cool'.

 

[Vintage_Hi-F]

but I'm pretty sure I know who's buying these big bucks vinyl reissues and box sets and it's not a bunch of college kids.

Why waste money on reissues when you can get the original in excellent shape for a fraction of the cost, that's what us college kids who actually care do.

 

[Sam Cogley]

If it sounds good listen to it!

That is the heart of the issue. :thmbsp:

 

[austi15]

Thought this was kinda funny, the "testing" setup at the local record store has a cheap pioneer turntable feeding into a near mint SX-1250 then out the headphone jack to crappy $2 headphones. Poor thing isn't even hooked up to speakers :tears:


The store also sells trade-in equipment, it cycles through very decent vintage 'tables every week or so when I go in. 4 different B&O's, a really nice heavy wood base Denon, and a Thorens something or other, even a SL-1200 mk2. (granted that's a dj turntable primarily but it's pretty well built and quiet from what I've heard). also saw a pair of decent JBL L100's along with a lot of junk. All in the last month or so. It's all priced at "market" prices or higher :sigh: but the point is...it cycles through very rapidly. I'm guessing boomer-age people, maybe a little younger or older, trade it in for credit, maybe their kids trade it in to. who buys it? I'm thinking the younger customers who want to try something different from the junk they're used to. Just a guess, I'm sure some of it goes to older (uh, i mean more experienced ) customers but judging from the age distribution much of it is going to college-age people.

 

[JohnVF]

Thought this was kinda funny, the "testing" setup at the local record store has a cheap pioneer turntable feeding into a near mint SX-1250 then out the headphone jack to crappy $2 headphones. Poor thing isn't even hooked up to speakers :tears:


The store also sells trade-in equipment, it cycles through very decent vintage 'tables every week or so when I go in. 4 different B&O's, a really nice heavy wood base Denon, and a Thorens something or other, even a SL-1200 mk2. (granted that's a dj turntable primarily but it's pretty well built and quiet from what I've heard). also saw a pair of decent JBL L100's along with a lot of junk. All in the last month or so. It's all priced at "market" prices or higher :sigh: but the point is...it cycles through very rapidly. I'm guessing boomer-age people, maybe a little younger or older, trade it in for credit, maybe their kids trade it in to. who buys it? I'm thinking the younger customers who want to try something different from the junk they're used to. Just a guess, I'm sure some of it goes to older (uh, i mean more experienced ) customers but judging from the age distribution much of it is going to college-age people.

I know a number of college aged people with pretty nice turntables, and it's becoming more and more common for me to go to a party or something and see some nice LPs and a turntable.

The technics 1200 wasn't designed as a DJ table, by the way..it just ended up one because they're so reliable, well built, and reject feedback pretty well. I've seen many in home use.

 

[austi15]

The technics 1200 wasn't designed as a DJ table, by the way..it just ended up one because they're so reliable, well built, and reject feedback pretty well. I've seen many in home use.

Wow I didn't know that, that's pretty cool. Now I want one lol

 

[JohnVF]

Wow I didn't know that, that's pretty cool. Now I want one lol

My girlfriend has two of the black SL-1210s and they're extremely nice turntables and a joy to use. The platter stops and starts instantaneously.

They're heavy, too. That's what surprised me most about them, compared to the Technics DD I had when I was younger. If they hadn't spread the cost out over 30 years and thousands of them, they'd probably be a lot more expensive than they are.

 

[bergun]

Since the producers of good “mid-fi” gear… i.e., Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo ect… are mainly focused on home theater stuff, which sounds pretty good from sources like dvds or blu-ray discs, but somewhat suck in the 2 channel mode. I think that’s what is really killing our hobby.

Yes, I know the market directs what gear is made and marketed by the major producers and yes, Yamaha has put out a very decent 2 channel system, the A-S2000 and the CD-S2000, which is very good news, but would have been better if they included a FM/AM/Digital tuner with this series, but that’s a different subject!! Anyway, I feel that if the equipment makers start putting out quality “black” or “silver” boxes again, it would be a hit with the 25 plus y/o crowd again since I will agree that the younger crowd is now understanding what they are missing and that an I-pod isn’t the peak of audio excellence, but just something to have while on the go. I’m 47 y/o and my youngest daughter is a 20 y/o college student, who has a I-pod, but understands that my room of “black boxes” is where she goes when she wants to really hear her music.

BTW, I’ve always been into Kraftwerk and when I throw on some of their releases from the 70s and 80s, she will breakdown and admit that some of us “old” guys “had” a clue!!

As for the lack of B&M stores these days, that mainly focused on audio equipment that has really also hurt our hobby too. That’s where I got hooked!! It was the place to dream about all the great stuff and a place to start the process of putting together a good system as you listened to each piece while building it, as well as adding to it and later, upgrading each piece with the new and improved equipment that was coming out yearly by the major manufactures. Plus, many of these businesses would give you about a week or so to ensure that you were happy with the gear you bought and if needed, allowed you to swap it out with something else.

It’s really hard to go into a place like Best Buys to test the stuff on the shelf since most of it isn’t even hooked up or even in their demo areas since its mainly geared to home theater and to the consumer who’s on the go and only wants to spend 10-15 minutes on a purchase, which the staff is geared for since that’s what the masses want and its also good for business since you’re not giving yourself the time to really check the item out before purchasing it. I’m from Seattle and I remember when the “real “Magnolia Hi Fi was a family owned business before selling there name to Best Buy a few years ago. That’s where I picked up most of my Yamaha, Denon and dbx gear from back in the 80s.

Also, I’m not a audio snob that looks down on other people gear or taste since we are all different, but I feel that a select group of guys/gals can turn off the younger crowd by being too elitist, which isn’t too cool these days, but if we could just show them how good music can sound on anything other than a I-pod or computer, I think we can win most of them over to our side again.

Yes, we always had the snobs and yes, they will never go away either... Which in a weird way is good since we need a check and balance system too!!

With that being said, I don’t think we will ever return back to the way it was back in the 70s and 80s, but I think with the 25 plus y/o crowd on our side of the fence, the major electronic companies will start producing good 2 channel gear again. If I see Pioneer, Yamaha, or some other major electronic company coming out with a new or even an improved "retro styled" turntable with good specs, I’ll be happy since it would be a good start.

Just think how cool it would be if Pioneer re-introduced an updated version of the SA-9800 or the SA-9500II amp with a matching CD player and digital/analog Tuner!!! It would sell both to the young and old like crazy!!! Heck, I would be in Stereo Heaven if Yamaha reintroduced either the M-85/C-85/T-85 or the MX1000/CX-1000/TX-1000 WITH a matching CD player!!

...Talk about dreaming!!!!!

 

[Mark W.]

Show me any collecting hobby that is main stream