Why Our Hobby Won't Grow
- Thread starter carbonman
- Start date
I see it as simply more of the "it was better when I was young!" crud that's been babbled on about since time immemorial. The world marches on - the good stuff stays with us and the bad gets booted into the weeds. Notice that we're still reading Shakespeare 500 years later...
merrylander
AK Member
Well that is certainly the best way and either one of them has no trouble filling the halls. That said it is also nice to come as close to the live concert as possible in the comfort of one's home.
mrt2
Super Member
"Our Hobby" is not just about vintage gear. It is about the whole audiophile hobby. If our hobby survives, our grandchildren surely will use different gear than we did, just as many of us have different gear than the old Victrolas , console, and corner horns our grandparents used. The question is whether, in 20 years, there will be a recording industry and electronics manuafacturers. I believe that as long as people enjoy recorded music, and all evidence suggests people do, that some small subset of this group will care about getting the best quality sound from it. Also, while I have expressed some pessimism about current trends, long term I think higher quality digital is the way forward. Sure, mp3s don't sound great, but neither did AM radio in the early 60s, but those same kids eventually grew up and in the 70s bought all that silver faced gear many on this forum love so much, so a hi fi renaisance could be just around the corner as the millenials grow up.
marc mc
Super Member
The problem with this thread is "our Hobby" is something different to just about all of us. But for me our hobby is not just "listening to music", anymore than a hot rodder "just drives cars". Merrylander nails the essence of what the audio design pioneers were after "to come as close to the live concert as possible in the comfort of one's home." right or wrong, that has been the definition of my hobby from the start. That is not to say that I reject anothers view of our hobby. Only to point out what my views and comments here relate to.
I had a plastic Sansui stereo when I was about 18 and I also owned about 500 albums. But I walked into Arthur's store and heard a band coming from a pair of speakers. It was a group I hated Simply Red, but I was blown away. I thought it was the speakers and after I bought them he and others taught me that more than speakers are required. But listening to music is not the audiophile hobby to me. I shoot far higher than that. And that is what many hear are saying has been disappearing from the next generations. They show no interest in that as a worthwhile pursuit. And even if they did, the stores and mentors are gone.
I agree with what your saying about the advances in the digital format and I know it is the future and it will improve. Just like cars have advanced but for some of us the possibilty of it sparking the interest of Merrylanders quote is extremely small and is becoming less and less accessable to them. And at the time when other generations were showing interest the millenials are going the other way and the NeXer's or Cyber's if you like will likely not know what a stereo is. Will they "listen to music?" Yes! 24/7.
marc mc
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TejasRichard
Babies taste of chicken..
Wrong again, Marc. There are 3 generations of AKers here, and enough experience within its members' ranks to mentor any number of brand new n00bs. Hell, I came here looking for info on HT, 2 years later I have a system that sounds infinitely better than I ever imagined it could. On the way, I have picked up more knowledge about electronics, acoustics, and the use of pickles to derail silly arguments than I ever thought I'd need to know. Now, I know that this is different than when you were being mentored, and maybe it wouldn't work for you. Truth is, it doesn't have to. It has to work for kids who all grew up getting most of their info and advice from the internet already. So, maybe some of the old paradigms are dying, but not the hobby. Again, the evidence is in front of your face embodied by the young people on AK and elsewhere. Different isn't the same as dying or dead.
marc mc
Super Member
This is not a criticism! but compared to what?. I understand that places like AK are fun and it's a good place to get help. But remember your getting your help and info from people that they have actually heard the gear they are talking about. Just a thought but how much would your advice be worth in 20 years if you continue as you are and never get to hear the stuff your talking about. This has never been a talking hobby, it's a listening hobby. And the places to hear new stuff are gone.
The mentoring was only a part. I was able to hear the "State of the art" and all the levels below it. Again let me say, this hobby is not about chit chat and what cart sounds better on what arm according to so and so. Without actually hearing the differences your flying blind with every move or purchase you make. AK is a great place to get info, and if it had arrived before all the stores closed it would have been 50 times more valuable. As it stands the most you can hope for is the advice you received lines up with gear you just bought, but have never heard. Today on the Net everyones right, and there is no way to find out. We used to trot down to a store and hear a piece perform against others peices and decide. Today? everybodies right. And the advice you get could be from a guy that has a stereo that blows the one other system he's heard "Out of the water!". Do you see what I mean? AK is a great community but it is not the audio hobby. Or let me say what audio used to be.
For the record I admire your zeal and passion I really do. And I know that if I was starting out today I would probably be on your side of this thing. I was very young when I started and I still have that early excitement today. Audio is not my main hobby but it has been an innocent amusement for me for many years and I hope it is that for you as well.
marc mc
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I think the biggest threat to our hobby is a focus on sound over music. I don't know how many times I've walked into a boutique audio store only to have to listen to some well recorded but emotionless drivel, and had to have listened to the salesman say "listen to that sound". If he had asked me what I liked and then said "listen to that music" I'd have thought the exercise was worthwhile.
This isn't to say all venues are like that. But there is this assumption among many in the audiophile community that music is only worthwhile compared to how well recorded it is. That idea is even at the route of this thread...that our hobby isn't about music, but about absolute sound quality. And among most music fans I know who are young, it's about a passion for music however it gets to them. I'd rather listen to Nina Simone in mono with tape noise than some of the same modern 'audiophile' recordings, of the same songs, in perfect stereo to where I can hear the singers lips part, even though the song is soulless in execution. And most young people I know who have dabbled in stereo have mentioned this to me...how they feel like they don't belong, because they don't listen to the right music, or the music that they listen to is looked down upon because it isn't recorded 'correctly'.
This snobbishness about what's correct and not correct in how one enjoys music, in my opinion, is what is going to cause the death of this hobby. This digging in of heels because some people don't mind their music to be, at times, portable or easily stored in a small space. I have about 2000 lps and maybe 1000 CDs but you know what? I bought an album on iTunes last week because I knew I was only going to listen to it on my computer on headphones at work. I guess I'm causing the downfall of the industry.
As long as music survives, there will be people who want to hear it at it's best. But when the end result is sound, not music, a good many people are going to be turned off. I still feel this way in most audiophile stores, though Chicago has a few that aren't like this at all.
This isn't to say all venues are like that. But there is this assumption among many in the audiophile community that music is only worthwhile compared to how well recorded it is. That idea is even at the route of this thread...that our hobby isn't about music, but about absolute sound quality. And among most music fans I know who are young, it's about a passion for music however it gets to them. I'd rather listen to Nina Simone in mono with tape noise than some of the same modern 'audiophile' recordings, of the same songs, in perfect stereo to where I can hear the singers lips part, even though the song is soulless in execution. And most young people I know who have dabbled in stereo have mentioned this to me...how they feel like they don't belong, because they don't listen to the right music, or the music that they listen to is looked down upon because it isn't recorded 'correctly'.
This snobbishness about what's correct and not correct in how one enjoys music, in my opinion, is what is going to cause the death of this hobby. This digging in of heels because some people don't mind their music to be, at times, portable or easily stored in a small space. I have about 2000 lps and maybe 1000 CDs but you know what? I bought an album on iTunes last week because I knew I was only going to listen to it on my computer on headphones at work. I guess I'm causing the downfall of the industry.
As long as music survives, there will be people who want to hear it at it's best. But when the end result is sound, not music, a good many people are going to be turned off. I still feel this way in most audiophile stores, though Chicago has a few that aren't like this at all.
That's one reason we need friends and audio clubs. Now I can't speak for other places but here in Chicago we have many good hi-fi shops and a couple of good audio clubs and I've a wide circle of audiophile pals. Recently the Chicago Audio Society featured the new Jantzen stats and anyone in the Chicago Horn Club would've recently been able to hear new Martin Logan stats with a new Jolida amp and Denon record player. As well as a system based on 1970s era EV gear with an Ampex preamp and a modified Dyna ST 70 that blows my new MLs away.
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I would put any name brand surround receiver up against a mid level 70's receiver for two channel performance.Just my opinion - I think one of the most over looked things to do when getting a piece of vintage gear is re-capping it. I see a ton of posts where people suggest if it is working, leave it alone.
Maybe it is just from my experience, but a vintage piece of gear that has not been re-capped properly will not sound as good as one that has been. You may think all is well and not even notice anything. But once it has been re-capped, you notice a vast improvement in clarity and detail (at least I have).
No matter the caps are not leaking, the paste in those are 30+ years old and they have a life span of 20 years.
Again, my opinion, but I believe quite a few people who do not think vintage gear can hold it's own against newer . much more expensive gear have never had a properly restored piece.
Listening pleasure is in the ear of the beholder, but not even for monetary purposes, I will take a mid level RESTORED vintage piece of gear over any mid level new HT system anyday. Of course I have not heard them all, but I know my mid level Yamaha did not even come close to what I have now, was not even in the same ball park.
That vintage piece you compared it to may look great, but I would wonder if it has been re-capped before you thought about comparing it.
By the way - for comparison's sake. In the 70's, the Japanese were really concerned about their image of producing quality pieces. They were trying to insure they got rid of the stigma "made in japan" meant inferior products.
When they put the specifications on the equipment, that meant that it would play for one solid hour at those specs. If they said it was a 50wpc receiver with .05% distortion, it had to play for one hour at 50wpc with .05% distortion. This is why the vintage pieces seem to have much more "power" at the same ratings amps have today. If they rated their equipment using today's standards, that 50wpc receiver would instantly turn into a 75wpc or even more.
Not saying there is not high quality equipment made today because there is a ton of it, but, my opinion, if you were to buy something of the same quality as a mid-level or better today, you had better bring your check book because it will not be cheap.
Not saying mine is that great as some people may not even like it, but try to find an amp comparable to the build quality of my Spec 2 today in a mid level HT system - I say it is not going to happen. It may look better when you are looking at the specs, but the specs are not even figured the same way.
There are some nice mid level HT systems I am sure, but I am a music guy and do not really care much about HT, I'll take my vintage gear any day for listening to 2 channel music (at least I will take it over what it would cost me to get comparable quality in a new one).
I could not even afford something made today of comparable quality.
^I'm actually here because I was so blown away by how very thoroughly my mid-level HT receiver was trounced by an average but restored '70s integrated amp. That was what brought me to AK.
Since then I've also discovered that mid level HT receivers AREN'T the current state of the art, and there is a lot of great new stuff, too.
There is only good and bad gear. Age has little to do with it.
Since then I've also discovered that mid level HT receivers AREN'T the current state of the art, and there is a lot of great new stuff, too.
There is only good and bad gear. Age has little to do with it.
I think you've hit the crux of the issue. Fortunately, the high-end audio store here (where I can't afford anything) seems to be focused on presenting the content in the best manner possible. The last time I walked in there, they had Norah Jones sitting on an expensive turntable in the middle of the main listening area.
Lucky turntable.
The album I bought last week on iTunes was in their lossless format, or whatever the 256k option was. I played it right off my computer into an old Knight integrated tube amp, and in my glass-windowed office downtown it sounded fantastic. Sure it wasn't the best, but the music still came through and it was involving. I'd have preferred it to be on vinyl, but I don't have a record player here and when I'm working, I don't want to be bothered with flipping the LP.
:lmao:
mrt2
Super Member
I disagree with you on this point. There are a lot of threats to our hobby including: 1. the threat to the recording industry from cheap or free downloads, 2. the existential threat of no B & M specialty stores, 3. availability of other forms of electronic entertainment from home theater, computers, video games, 4. the indifference of many to the huge chasm that has opened up between cheap stereo/ipods and high end gear priced in the stratosphere.
Your criticism of "The focus on sound" is, IMO, a form of reverse snobbery. I don't blame B & M retailers for using recordings that show their products
in the best light, and I have yet to find a retailer who refused to let me play my preferred recordings. The best places let me play my favorite recordings for HOURS, even when I was not ready to buy anything. Sadly, these places are too frequently closing their doors due to consumer indifference/refusal to consider better products, high retail prices of good newer gear, and moral hazard (people who should know better but take a retailers time up listening to high end gear and then buying it for cheaper elsewhere, or used on Audiogon.
mrt2
Super Member
I agree with your second concern that if we become too few and far between, that the younger generation will lack mentors. I still remember my uncle helping me to set up my first real system, by giving me a tuner and sending me to a store where he had called up the owner and told him I was coming. And I knew better was possible when I saw my great uncle's Mac tube system. Will internet forums like this one replace face to face contact and direct experience with good gear? That is hard to say, but the audiophile hobby was a fringe hobby in the 50s, and later grew into a mass phenomenon in the 70s, so the potential is there.
As for the ideal of live music, I wonder whether some of this had even declined by the 70s. I was into recorded music long before I ever attended any concert, and only started to go to live concerts after I started buying records and gear. I attended my first rock concert in 1981, my first jazz and classical concerts in 1983/84, while I was buying records and gear as early as 1977. I see no reason why others in the future cannot follow that same path.