Why Our Hobby Won't Grow

[Scuzzer]

Scuzzer, a quick search revealed this:

"Usual exclusions are food and energy (F&E) argued on the basis of their undue volatility."

You're talking about core CPI vs. total CPI

From a recent inflation report:

"Led by a 9.1% increase in gasoline prices, the Consumer Price Index rose 0.4% in August and followed no change in July, according to the Labor Department. The core CPI, which excludes volatile energy and food prices, increased 0.1% in August, the same level as July."

http://www.usinflationcalculator.co...nsumer-prices-higher-on-energy-costs/1000556/

edit: BTW, I think the CPI isn't a real comparison of buying power since it involves fixed items and doesn't take into account that consumers have a variety of choices to fulfil their needs.

 

[mrt2]

edit: BTW, I think the CPI isn't a real comparison of buying power since it involves fixed items and doesn't take into account that consumers have a variety of choices to fulfil their needs.

This is an important point.

The thing is, when we are talking consumer electronics, there wasn't all that much for consumers to spend money on. Cell phones, home theaters, computers, video games... all of that didn't exist in the 70s, and even in the 80s, computers and video games were still in their infancy. And yet all of these things compete for the home electronics entertainment dollar these days.

 

[Scuzzer]

On top of that it's trying to measure inflation in things like computers and cell phones. How do you compare the cost of a computer in 2009 vs 1999 or 1989? How much of the difference is based on the increased technical capability of the unit?

I would think the CPI would be better for comparing the price of eggs or something that is manufactured the same way over the entire comparison time period.

 

[andy]

... I would disagree with you about the quality of the average home. Having worked closely with the housing sector for over 10 years now (land surveyor), i have seen a fair number of houses in a broad range of neighborhoods and from a broad age range. Housing quality in general seems to have been in decline since the late 80's, and with in the last 10 years I have seen a marked and rapid loss in quality of both materials and construction. ...

I couldn't agree more. I'm in the market to buy my first home, and I'm aiming for something from the 60's-70's. Most of the new houses I've seen are like small McMansions. They look flashy from the front yard, but there's no quality. I'm renting a 2006 house, and there are cracks in the plaster, walls that aren't straight, nothing but cheap lights and appliances, and the A/C is so noisy I want to scream. This is in a house that would sell for about $200,000.

 

[Scuzzer]

I would disagree with you about the quality of the average home.

Who said anything about quality? I said the AVERAGE home of 40 years ago is very different from the AVERAGE home of today. I'm sure if you looked it up you could find a comparison of what is considered average for the relevant time period.

Commodities are not manufactured goods. Commodities are the things used to make manufactured goods.

BTW, I agree with the thrust of your argument earlier in the thread. I disagree with the use of inflation to explain why things are different now.

 

[yosl]

Duh!! Do you really think this is a growth hobby? The reality is this, what fed this hobby was a plentiful supply of used stuff at a very resonable price . It allowed many of us old guys to buy what we couldn't afford in its day. That facination and appreciation doesn't exist in successive generations. So go figure, do you really think our sons and daughters will carry the torch to such a degree tbhat our hobby will grow? The truely good gear will go on but it'll be a small suset of what is considerd mainstream vintage currently.

 

[JohnVF]

It allowed many of us old guys to buy what we couldn't afford in its day.

We're not all old, and we're not all solely collectors of vintage gear. That's why I think this conversation is going in circles, we're not all talking about the death of the same hobby. Maybe they're all doomed. :tears:

 

[blackfly]

It's worth noting that every home theater receiver I've ever seen has a two channel mode. I would put any name brand surround receiver up against a mid level 70's receiver for two channel performance. Most of them are capable of an honest 50-100 WPC in 2 channel mode.

Now, HT in a box is another story, but those are the people who would have has a suitcase stereo in the 70's.

Sorry but you are blatantly wrong on this one. The gear from the 70's, and as a fan I know, was VASTLY superior to the "stuff" made today. Power supplies were more robust, able to drive lower impedences, with large transformers and usually large capacitor banks. That is the way it was done as chip amps were not yet invented so you HAD to do it right. I bought a TOTL Yamaha RX V1050 Surround Sound Receiver in 1993 (I think) that was made in Japan that could not even come CLOSE to the Rotel 1412 I have. Same for either the RX 1203 or the 1603 Rotel receivers.

Like the addage says "they don't make them like they use to"......... absolutely true and you cannot expect gear made in China to complete, quality wise, with gear from Japanese factories. And gear in the 70's was made to last, something new gear just does not have any idea about. No wonder we are headed for trouble.

 

[blackfly]

We're not all old, and we're not all solely collectors of vintage gear. That's why I think this conversation is going in circles, we're not all talking about the death of the same hobby. Maybe they're all doomed. :tears:

Or maybe it is just US that is doomed. The gear will just sit there but it will still be there. Depressing thought that good gear will outlast us if given care. But perhaps the reason I love it so.....

 

[blackfly]

For you, I think you're right when you say the investment might not be worth it. But since I bought my VPI, I've bought probably 20 records, and only 2 cds (and one album on iTunes). And that also represents my listening habits. And I love my CD player. Even if I just had those 20 records so far, the purchase price of my turntable would have been worth. To me. And that's just it...the future of this all doesn't matter as long as each of us can still play what we want. If I'm around 50 years from now, I'll still be listening to records at least part of the time, whether anybody else is or not. Because I honestly don't care what the future of the hobby is as long as I'm free to enjoy my music the way I choose.

I respect your view and share it. But ask yourself this: If you love vinyl, and are willing to stand by it, what happens in 20 years, say, if you cannot find any more cartridges to play the records with? Don't laugh. It could happen. On my CDP, I just replaced the laser, and I do not smoke so the laser should last a long time. PLUS, I have a NEW SPARE that can be installed by any competent tech. I am planning for the future and ensuring a long life. I wonder how many vinyl fans do this.

Again, I will be listening to music 40 years from now, but I can almost bet most of what I love will no longer be available for listening, so the CD's I have (think LP's in your case) are actually an archive of sorts that preserve what we love. I am still listening to music I listened to when 12, 16, 24.... I like what I like and do NOT follow trends. So for me, so long as I can play the discs I have I am happy. But the point is I am prepared to ensure I can PLAY the discs I have for the longest time possible. In fact, once the DAC comes into the system, I might then purchase ANOTHER laser to ensure the CDP will last as long as I do, as the transport is so solid you cannot expect it to die easily. I am preparing for this eventuality, but I think a lot of vinyl fans think it will go on forever and I am not so sure.

And who knows? Down the road I might be able to rip all my CD's to a file server (of some sort) and no longer need them. Or they will be available on high res downloads. I am not sure what will be. But I am positive of what I have NOW and I am willing to do whatever it takes to preserve that. I am sure fans of tape media can attest to that ideology as well, buying up all blank media they can. But once it is gone, and no longer available, what then? Where do you go for a new table motor, or new arm, or new cartridge? This is how I see it and as much as I would like to delve into it now to see what it is about (and believe me it would suit me perfectly) I am not so sure the outlay in cost is something I could justify when it could get me closer to the digital path I plan to continue going down.

 

[blackfly]

Don't lose hope, here in the DC/Baltimore area we have two young violinists - Hilary Hahn and Joshua Bell - they did not devote the hours of study their discipline requires to be listened to on an iPod. For every young person who can undergo the rigorious training their art requires there must be many more who love real music enough to wish to hear it properly reproduced.

Unfortunately they are in the minority and becoming more minor as time goes on.....

 

[asoundhound]

If you love vinyl, and are willing to stand by it, what happens in 20 years, say, if you cannot find any more cartridges to play the records with? Don't laugh. It could happen.

well.....

i might have one or two squirreled away for a rainy day....

 

[blackfly]

Some people long for the sky to fall, and I understand not why.

I do not think anyone here is longing for the sky to fall. But some, and I think a lot, realize it might be and it is either you see it or you don't. I would be the last to want it to fall as without my system and means to repair/add/enlarge it would be tantamount to me losing a body part. There were times my love of audio was not so passionate but it never faded away. The debate is whether the sky IS falling, and how fast, not who wants it or not.

 

[TejasRichard]

My apologies scudder. You didn't make that statement, that is where my mind lept to. Most people, I think, recognize that goods manufactured 3 decades apart are likely to have differences for good or ill in the manner of construction and materials used. So when I saw the price averages, the first thing i noticed was the inflation of home prices relative to wages, and the second thought was a quick comparison of the houses I've seen from the two eras. To me, this degredation of quality makes the true inflation that much higher. This is what i was refering too, albeit poorly. You may be right and inflation may not have as direct an effect on the purchasing habits of the masses as I had previously indicated. But what if you take a shortening of discretionary spending, and then combine that with the vast increases in choices about where to put your money? I mean, thirty years ago cable was in its infancy. Now a lot of people pay for some sort of television service, pay for internet access, pay for a cellphone line (or two), in addition to the "normal" bills already present at that time. And all of these things need equipment to go with them.


As I'm writing this, I'm having to go back and rewrite parts as I think about them, and as more things occur to me. In a lot of ways this is a hard subject to talk about (our hobby) because we all expect so many different things out of it. I think that may be the main reason this hobby will never die: because it's not just one hobby. You have tinkers and fixers and collectors and music nuts and gear lovers and all kinds of other things. Some parts may pass into or out of fashion, but there is so much here to offer people that I have a very hard time seeing it every die out. As long as there is music there will always be music lovers. maybe things will go back to the way they were before the big bang. maybe the people purchasing the new gear will be those who are wealthy enough to afford it. But then, there will always be others who couldn't afford the new stuff to buy the old stuff when it gets cast off. Are our numbers shrinking? prolly so. There are a whole lot of you boomers out there. But while the ranks may dwindle a bit, I'm gonna guess they will plateau and never die out completely.

 

[Scuzzer]

Now a lot of people pay for some sort of television service, pay for internet access, pay for a cellphone line (or two), in addition to the "normal" bills already present at that time. And all of these things need equipment to go with them.

Now I think you're getting at the crux of the issue. Keeping up the Jones has pushed the average house over 2000 sqft, made a wide screen high def TV a necessity, enlarged our average car size to silly proportions, and we still haven't touched home theater or web browsing cell phones. Has the cost of living actually gone up or has our idea of what we absolutely have to have expanded to include things that people in 1970 had no idea would ever exist?

How many people did you know in 1970 that had air conditioning? How many people you know now that don't? This question is more pertinent to people who grew up in more northerly climates obviously.

 

[JohnVF]

I respect your view and share it. But ask yourself this: If you love vinyl, and are willing to stand by it, what happens in 20 years, say, if you cannot find any more cartridges to play the records with? Don't laugh. It could happen. On my CDP, I just replaced the laser, and I do not smoke so the laser should last a long time. PLUS, I have a NEW SPARE that can be installed by any competent tech. I am planning for the future and ensuring a long life. I wonder how many vinyl fans do this.

Again, I will be listening to music 40 years from now, but I can almost bet most of what I love will no longer be available for listening, so the CD's I have (think LP's in your case) are actually an archive of sorts that preserve what we love. I am still listening to music I listened to when 12, 16, 24.... I like what I like and do NOT follow trends. So for me, so long as I can play the discs I have I am happy. But the point is I am prepared to ensure I can PLAY the discs I have for the longest time possible. In fact, once the DAC comes into the system, I might then purchase ANOTHER laser to ensure the CDP will last as long as I do, as the transport is so solid you cannot expect it to die easily. I am preparing for this eventuality, but I think a lot of vinyl fans think it will go on forever and I am not so sure.

And who knows? Down the road I might be able to rip all my CD's to a file server (of some sort) and no longer need them. Or they will be available on high res downloads. I am not sure what will be. But I am positive of what I have NOW and I am willing to do whatever it takes to preserve that. I am sure fans of tape media can attest to that ideology as well, buying up all blank media they can. But once it is gone, and no longer available, what then? Where do you go for a new table motor, or new arm, or new cartridge? This is how I see it and as much as I would like to delve into it now to see what it is about (and believe me it would suit me perfectly) I am not so sure the outlay in cost is something I could justify when it could get me closer to the digital path I plan to continue going down.

I think you worry too much about the future instead of enjoying today.

I don't worry about whether or not I can get a cartridge in 40 years. Audio folks are a resourceful bunch, I'm sure somebody will be selling something that plays records. You can still buy pretty much all the pieces you need to upgrade a Thorens TD-124, so I'm not worried about my VPI going the way of the dodo. I love listening to vinyl so much, I'd pay whatever it took to play it down the road. My CDs will probably get transferred to a hard-drive at some point, they have no nostalgic value to me. But my vinyl..I remember when I bought almost every record I own. Some of it was with best friends from high school, or road trips with ex girlfriends. All that plays into why I like it. It's something that 'is'. It's a thing, not just bits and bytes, that you can develop an attachment to.

I bought a record the other day that came with a CD copy, so last night I played them both back to back. I was surprised at how different it sounded, and by how much I preferred the vinyl. I didn't dislike the CD, I just didn't think it sounded as natural. The record/CD had a lot of acoustic instrumentation, and it just sounded so much more real. Odd..as it was probably mixed on ProTools digital software. Hmm...

 

[Scuzzer]

what happens in 20 years, say, if you cannot find any more cartridges to play the records with? Don't laugh. It could happen.

I'd be willing to bet that someone somwhere will be able to sell me a phono cartridge for as long as I'm alive. It's a simple electro-mechanical device that people are able to make by hand. It's also not a specialized part so one type of cartridge can fit a wide variety of tables and arms. If you extend the 20 years out to 200 then perhaps you might have a point.

 

[RichPA]

It will be 20 years ago in a few months that I bought my "last" TT and cartridge because I thought I'd never have another chance. I'm 53, and if I'm lucky, I've got another 30 or so years left - I have no doubt I'll be able to play LPs and CDs for that time span. And when I die, there'll be one child left to carry on ...

 

[Alaric]

The gear from the 70's, and as a fan I know, was VASTLY superior to the "stuff" made today

Respectfully , horsecrap. My $500 integrated and $150 (used) tuner will flat smoke most of the 70s gear I've heard. ( I said most , not all.) My $1600 speakers sound as good (to me) as my $2400 speakers (1983) did. As for power supplies , the transformer and caps in my 'lil integrated don't suffer in comparison to 95wpc receivers from the 70s. The bass is clean and crisp , the mids sweet , and the highs are clear , detailed , and open. "Warm" is frequently a description of muddy bass and distorted mids (again , not always) , or low quality speakers.
Before the vintage crowd piles on , I qualified each statement. I'm very much aware that some great gear was produced in the 70s , but some gear today makes it pale in comparison. Panasonic's SA-XR AV receivers were a phenominal deal for a stupid-low price.

 

[onepixel]

Don't lose hope, here in the DC/Baltimore area we have two young violinists - Hilary Hahn and Joshua Bell - they did not devote the hours of study their discipline requires to be listened to on an iPod. For every young person who can undergo the rigorious training their art requires there must be many more who love real music enough to wish to hear it properly reproduced.

Will never loose hope.

I know extremely talented kids who play in the San Francisco Symphony Youth Orchestra. I know dozens of kids/young adults who play a variety of instruments and music and many who have their own bands. Folk, rock, jazz, classical and more. A number of them have gone to attend prestigious music school around the country. Most have iPods, but most have very well trained ears and appreciate real sound.

As for the gear... the good new stuff is much better.