mrt2
Super Member
And sometimes people give away good cd players too. That wasn't what this person was talking about, he meant a modern, plasticky $80 table/cart.
Why Our Hobby Won't Grow
- Thread starter carbonman
- Start date
And sometimes people give away good cd players too. That wasn't what this person was talking about, he meant a modern, plasticky $80 table/cart.
I've also encountered those who think that any table will beat a CD player, and it's just not true. That said, there are things you still get out of the experience of playing records on an $80 turntable that a $5000 CD player can't offer you. But these things aren't sonically related, so maybe it's outside of this discussion. The whole passion for rummaging through record stores, not knowing what you'd find next, is how I ended up with a few thousand LPs, not sound quality. That I figured out 10 or 15 years into the hobby that my LPs could rival CD in sound...that was a great day.
If a high res digital format becomes standard, I will buy into it and I'm sure I'll love it (I already love CDs). But I'll still have my turntable and I'll still buy records!
If they want to beam the music straight into my head, ok, as long as the songs are good and it's of a decent fidelity.
But I'll still have a vintage tube setup.
It's just different flavors in one spectacular meal.
If a high res digital format becomes standard, I will buy into it and I'm sure I'll love it (I already love CDs). But I'll still have my turntable and I'll still buy records!
If they want to beam the music straight into my head, ok, as long as the songs are good and it's of a decent fidelity.
But I'll still have a vintage tube setup.
It's just different flavors in one spectacular meal.
Drop the stylus of a good table onto a clean Parlophone copy of "Sgt. Pepper" and anyone will fall head-first into vinyl. 
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
And this is the very reason I am not that enthusiastic about vinyl. I have NO LPs and every one would have to be obtained. For me, it would be starting anew. But I have a great CD collection and I am comfortable with it and familiar with it. But asking me to go out, find all my recordings on LP and then choose a player... on a medium that is fringe at best.... not very promising. I suppose it would make sense if I had lots of LPs sitting around with no player, but that is not the issue. And again, I HAVE heard great vinyl and I am facinated by it, but the cost outlay relative to the longevity and "door opening" factor is small. Buying into vinyl is accepting it will never get any better nor assuring it will be around. Digital, on the other hand, is with us, and will be so for the future as it is how everything information, pleasure and sonic/visual is transmitted. Analog, however good, is dead, or at the very least, dying. The day will come that you will get an analog signal from a digital source but that is not here yet, but coming.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
What a complete and total over-simplification. Suffocated? Someone forgot to tell us, we had a ball as kids in the thirties. And so now I am supposed to be a visionary, what a hoot.
As to a death rattle save that for the iPods and MP3, as long as classical music is loved no one will be content to play it on that sort of junk. Perhaps a generation that is content with the lousy sound of cell phones will not take to classical music, but no matter they will probably all be gone with brain tumors from their phones.
I like your post and sentiment it represents but the fact is: this MP3 generation is a lot like the "Breakfast Club" in that eventually they will grow up and control the world. And imagine that. No investment in high end gear, mediums or materials.
All the more reason for people who really love high end sound to prepare for a long term investment and keep the faith. Better make sure your gear is going to last a long time because it may just end up being the last you can get....
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
Great post. What more could anyone say.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
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Drop the stylus of a good table onto a clean Parlophone copy of "Sgt. Pepper" and anyone will fall head-first into vinyl.
It's never gonna sound better than it did the first time I heard it on AM radio 42 years ago.
All us drummers were ga-ga over Ringo's voomp---bop--voompvoomp-bop on the title cut.Speaking of radio, sort'a, I really enjoy the music channels on Comcast cable. I listen to the Swing and Standards channel often---Count Basie, Anita O'Day, Dick Hymes, Judy Garland, Diane Schuur and such.
Blackfly, it just sounds like vinyl isn't for you. That fact that you have no records says to me that it never really was, and that's fine. I've been collecting records since high school, which for me was back when vinyl was completely written off (late '80s early '90s). There were NO new records being pressed. And even then, it wasn't about style. If anything it was about a lack of style. They were cheap, and when my friends and I bought them, they were from back when the bands we liked were new. We felt we were connecting with that era, so to speak. It had almost nothing to do with fidelity. There's a huge portion of the population who loves music, and will happily get into a song, to be transported wherever that song takes them, on the most rudimentary, even terrible sounding equipment. The first time I heard George Harrison's "All things must pass" was on a fisher price record player. And that was still among the most moving listening experiences I've had.
For some of us, our hobby isn't about the clarity of the music. It isn't about frequency response or the tightness of bass or extension of the treble. It's about connecting with music, however that happens. I happen to love hearing it in a system that I tuned to my tastes, but I will not begrudge anybody who buys a record and plays it on a BSR changer or Panasonic all-in-one (partially because I had both of those when I was a kid
).
It will always be niche. It has been since the early '80s. But you say it's subject to being in and out. It hasn't ever 'out', it was just farther underground.
For you, I think you're right when you say the investment might not be worth it. But since I bought my VPI, I've bought probably 20 records, and only 2 cds (and one album on iTunes). And that also represents my listening habits. And I love my CD player. Even if I just had those 20 records so far, the purchase price of my turntable would have been worth. To me. And that's just it...the future of this all doesn't matter as long as each of us can still play what we want. If I'm around 50 years from now, I'll still be listening to records at least part of the time, whether anybody else is or not. Because I honestly don't care what the future of the hobby is as long as I'm free to enjoy my music the way I choose.
For some of us, our hobby isn't about the clarity of the music. It isn't about frequency response or the tightness of bass or extension of the treble. It's about connecting with music, however that happens. I happen to love hearing it in a system that I tuned to my tastes, but I will not begrudge anybody who buys a record and plays it on a BSR changer or Panasonic all-in-one (partially because I had both of those when I was a kid
). It will always be niche. It has been since the early '80s. But you say it's subject to being in and out. It hasn't ever 'out', it was just farther underground.
For you, I think you're right when you say the investment might not be worth it. But since I bought my VPI, I've bought probably 20 records, and only 2 cds (and one album on iTunes). And that also represents my listening habits. And I love my CD player. Even if I just had those 20 records so far, the purchase price of my turntable would have been worth. To me. And that's just it...the future of this all doesn't matter as long as each of us can still play what we want. If I'm around 50 years from now, I'll still be listening to records at least part of the time, whether anybody else is or not. Because I honestly don't care what the future of the hobby is as long as I'm free to enjoy my music the way I choose.
It's never gonna sound better than it did the first time I heard it on AM radio 42 years ago.
Speaking of radio, sort'a, I really enjoy the music channels on Comcast cable. I listen to the Swing and Standards channel often---Count Basie, Anita O'Day, Dick Hymes, Judy Garland, Diane Schuur and such.
I always forget about those channels, and my cable box is hooked into my main stereo setup. Now there's another medium to enjoy! And I just got a new tuner..Sansui TU999...sounds fantastic. The future of the hobby looks good from here.
marc mc
Super Member
I have 5 children, and the oldest two are a 21 year old daughter and an 18 year old son. I asked them both some audio related questions. And first let me say for the survey majors I know this is not scientific. My son has a PL12 turntable with a shure m97Xe, Technics SB-L300 speakers, Sony CDP and Arcam alpha integrated amp. And I have 4 decent systems that he hears all the time. My daughter has her Ipod and never wanted me to put a stereo in her room like I did for my son. Both are popular and have lots of freinds.
Here are some of the questions.
Do any of your friends own an actual stereo - No
Would you spend $200 for a complete stereo yourself - No
Have you ever heard any of your friends even mention sound quality - No
Do you ever just sit and listen to music - No
Even for 1 complete song - Long pause..... No
Do you or your friends buy music from a store - No
Do any of your friends own a turntable - No
If you saw a cool looking stereo store, would you go in - No
What do your friends use for sound in their life - Ipod's and phones
What do you use when their is a group - I-dock
A shift has occured and it will continue. gone are the days of sitting around and listening to LP's for hours.
Gone are the days of making your own speakers and tube amps.
Gone are the days of going to the stereo shop on pay day to pay another $50 on the turntable you have on layaway.
Music is wallpaper today. And not just the mainstream!
I love this hobby and have seen vinyl come full or more like freak circle. But don't forget I spent 15 years being laughed at,
and ridiculed by audiphiles for buying used albums to feed my Rega and Thorens. But the future of this hobby is no mystery " Iceburgs dead ahead"
the good news is unlike cable, source, and other audio debates. This one will be settled right in front of everyones eyes.
marc mc
Here are some of the questions.
Do any of your friends own an actual stereo - No
Would you spend $200 for a complete stereo yourself - No
Have you ever heard any of your friends even mention sound quality - No
Do you ever just sit and listen to music - No
Even for 1 complete song - Long pause..... No
Do you or your friends buy music from a store - No
Do any of your friends own a turntable - No
If you saw a cool looking stereo store, would you go in - No
What do your friends use for sound in their life - Ipod's and phones
What do you use when their is a group - I-dock
A shift has occured and it will continue. gone are the days of sitting around and listening to LP's for hours.
Gone are the days of making your own speakers and tube amps.
Gone are the days of going to the stereo shop on pay day to pay another $50 on the turntable you have on layaway.
Music is wallpaper today. And not just the mainstream!
I love this hobby and have seen vinyl come full or more like freak circle. But don't forget I spent 15 years being laughed at,
and ridiculed by audiphiles for buying used albums to feed my Rega and Thorens. But the future of this hobby is no mystery " Iceburgs dead ahead"
the good news is unlike cable, source, and other audio debates. This one will be settled right in front of everyones eyes.
marc mc
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illinoisteve
Super Member
There were 4500 kids at my high school, in the late 60's, and you could have certainly gotten one set of answers from a couple of popular kids that would be completely unrepresentative of answers from some of those who traveled in very different circles.
That isn't to say that your very interesting results don't represent the average, they might well be average views. But what if you polled every kid in the school band or chorus, every kid who was in a band, every kid who couldn't afford an Ipod or cell phone, every kid who wasn't popular? I doubt that all in those groups would answer some of the significant questions the same way as in your sample. Somewhere along the line, for example, you'll find a kid who can focus on listening to a whole song.
marc mc
Super Member
Of course. The point however is that when music was a focal point and young people did listen to music as a form of entertainment on an actual stereo, for the sake of argument lets say 50's-90's. It only produced an estimated 1 million audiophiles worldwide and they bought "new gear". What I am getting at is the climate that produced very few audiophiles in the past no longer exists in the next generations who use music as wallpaper, and get if from an ipod. And todays audiophile mostly buys "used gear"
The future of anything is seen in the next generation. Golf is healthy because every driving range I drive by is full of kids. Tiger Woods and others have produced an entire generation of golfers. he made it accesable and possible for them. I read an article 20 years ago called "The plot to kill Hi-Fi" I reread it the other day and it's all come true. And the Tiger Woods of audio is the Ipod. I've said it before that the internet and forums like AK give the average Joe a very warped view of whats really happening, it gives things a bigger footprint because it condences everything. I am fortunate to have some of the same hi end dealers I started with as friends. Talk to them and you will get a better undertanding of whats going on.
marc mc
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mrt2
Super Member
Interesting anecdote. This weekend, I had a brief conversation with my cousin, who was on her way to drop her son off at college in Chicago. Her ex husband is an audiophile, always had top notch stuff, mostly McIntosh, so her kids grew up around good gear. I asked her what her son was bringing with him to college for playing music (an ipod, of course), and whether any of his friends went through the ritual of lugging lps/cds and a real stereo to the dorms (no). Then I asked what she bought to replace the McIntosh stuff her ex husband took with him when he moved out (she hasn't. On occasion she plays cds on her dvd/home theater system but never replaced the good two channel system, though she might buy one of those Ipod docks.) When I asked doesn't she miss good two channel sound, she told me no, that was her ex husband's thing. :sigh:
In a nutshell, there is reason to be pessimistic. All the evidence suggests that for the vast majority, music is a secondary activity, and that cheap ipods are "good enough." Clearly, a good stereo is not a priority for the younger generation the way it was for many boomers and Gen Xers. Also, a strange inversion has happened. Because a good stereo was expensive back in the day, we often looked to our fathers, uncles, and older brothers for stereo advice back in the day, at least I did. Today, it is the adults look to their kids for tech advice as to what laptop/ipod/ipod dock works best.
So that is the reason to be pessimistic. On the other hand, perhaps the pursuit of recorded music was always something of a minority pursuit. Thinking back to my freshman year back in 1983, while almost everyone had music, it really was just a few rooms on a floor with 60 students that were really into the music thing, with the rest getting by with cassette boomboxes or walkmans. On average, today's kids have access to much, much more music than our generation did, though audio as a hobby is a lot lonelier place now than it was back then. Still, as these young people get older, some, maybe only 1% or 2% will pursue higher quality sound, but that group and perhaps another 4% or 5% that just buy to upgrade will be sufficient for our hobby to sustain itself in the future.
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merrylander
AK Member
Don't lose hope, here in the DC/Baltimore area we have two young violinists - Hilary Hahn and Joshua Bell - they did not devote the hours of study their discipline requires to be listened to on an iPod. For every young person who can undergo the rigorious training their art requires there must be many more who love real music enough to wish to hear it properly reproduced.
Actually, I wish it was not as popular at the moment then it is. There is enough equipment around now if they never made another piece to last me 20 or more life times and now apparently you can just throw the word "vintage" in front of something and sell it for 2x or more what it is worth.
Look at many of the totl vintage power receivers - those are selling for $2K plus. While they are great pieces, back when they were made, everyone I knew who was looking at that kind of power had separates. Now you can build a separate system cheaper then buying a receiver.
Vinyl - was not that long ago they were basically giving them away at yard sales. Now people think that copy of Th Captain and Tennile (or however you spell it) is worth $10.00.
If I came into millions of dollars, I would probably still be hard pressed to get everything that is available now.
I say let them have their ipod and their Klipsch Synergy systems. Most artists worth listening to will always find a way to get out good releases of their material and again, I could spend a life time just listening to vintage music - if I could afford it all.
Look at many of the totl vintage power receivers - those are selling for $2K plus. While they are great pieces, back when they were made, everyone I knew who was looking at that kind of power had separates. Now you can build a separate system cheaper then buying a receiver.
Vinyl - was not that long ago they were basically giving them away at yard sales. Now people think that copy of Th Captain and Tennile (or however you spell it) is worth $10.00.
If I came into millions of dollars, I would probably still be hard pressed to get everything that is available now.
I say let them have their ipod and their Klipsch Synergy systems. Most artists worth listening to will always find a way to get out good releases of their material and again, I could spend a life time just listening to vintage music - if I could afford it all.
Some people long for the sky to fall, and I understand not why.
Scuzzer
Fixed Bias
I don't know where the idea that everyone had expensive stereos came from, perhaps it was different in other parts of the country than the Midwest where I grew up.
I also started college in 1983 (Purdue University) and got stuck in the freshman dorm like most other engineering nerds. On our floor was about 40 rooms with 2 people per room so 80 guys. It was an eclectic mix of Indiana farmboys and rich kids from the east coast but my BOTL Pioneer separates was the best stereo on the floor. Most other rooms had a boombox or some form of all-in-one POS in them.
After that year I moved into a frat with about 60 guys and the number of non all-in-one POS stereos increased by exactly one. One other guy had a Technics 1200 with a Kenwood amp. There were quite a few fairly affluent guys around and guess what they were buying? If you said Walkmans and Macs give yourself a prize. We had a lot of music lovers, Deadheads, New Agers, Headbangers and every variation on the theme but a decent stereo was rare and a truly good one non-existent.
It was a lot of work moving the stereo stuff and records during every break. I would have loved having an MP3 player, a high power class D amp, and a decent pair of speakers back then.
Well, there's your problem! You have to ask the nerds and outcasts. They're the ones that sit and listen to music. I swear.
TejasRichard
Babies taste of chicken..
I'm sorry, but we're getting no where. You pull up these anecdotes and quote them as fact, even while acknowledging their unscientific basis, but seem to completely ignore the anecdotal evidence presented by others like John and myself. Marc, I'm not trying to pick on you, please don't read this that way. But how many times do we have to talk about the thriving music scenes, and the packed record stores before you get the hint: you're not seeing the whole picture. Waterloo records in Austin normally has a full parking lot 30 min. before they open (especially on Thursdays when the new releases come out). I've never-EVER-been the only one in that store. They have a music section full of NEW vinyl that is as large as some stores entire CD inventory, and a CD section that must be browsed through to be believed. It is staffed solely with music lovers, and is one of the most sought-after jobs in the under 30's workforce here....to the point that I've never seen them have a help-wanted sign out. Not in 6 years of frequenting the store. Look at the new users poll. Fully a third of the new users (last I looked) were under 40. Are there less of us than there are of the over 40 crowd? Sure. There are ALSO less of us in general. There's a reason it was called the baby BOOM. But the very fact that folks like myself and vinyldavid and Sir.Byrd and crackerkorean and vintage-yungin are here is proof that the hobby isn't dying but growing. Are we likely to replace all the boomer's? No, but again, there are a LOT more boomer's to start with. That doesn't mean that, statistically speaking, there will be a smaller population of audio enthusiasts with relation to the population at large. As far as I know, no one has actually done a study of this kind. But i know that my friends and I OFTEN sit down and listen to records. Every time someone gets a new one, the first think we do is shoot emails to each other on how it sounds. And it usually comes out at the very next get-together. Do all of my friends obsess over hifi? Nope. But they all LOVE music. And I still maintain that the views one would get from working in a hifi shop during the 70's would skew one's perspective with relationship to the masses view on sound quality. Sure, lots of good gear was sold, but LOTS of crap was sold also. To make any kind of accurate determination, you'd have to look not only at the goods being sold at dedicated electronics shops, but also at the stuff being sold at the low-end, low-rent, craptastic stores also. I'm willing to bet even money that just as much, if not much more, bad gear was sold. As to whether or not today's audiophiles will buy new gear...I think most of us would if it were cost effective enough. And once we have the financial means, I'm sure many of us will. But where I stand right now, I couldn't even come close to the sound I have now if I tried to spend the same dollars and buy new stuff. Hell, speakers alone would MORE than blow the budget. That does NOT mean I won't buy new EVENTUALLY! Not all of us are hung up on nostalgia...some just want the very best sound we can afford, which often means buying used. When I get some of my debt settled and have a little more income/debt ratio, there are SEVERAL upgrades in my future.
lastly:
Man #1 loves music so much that he spends thousands and thousands of dollars and makes endless sacrifices to get the best sound he possibly can. He has a dedicated listening room setup for the optimum experience.
Man #2 loves music so much that he wants to listen all the time: at work, in the car, while jogging, in the shower, while giving his wife a good schlepping, all the freakin time. He doesn't care about the fidelity, as long as he can hear all the songs he loves that mean so much to him.
Which one loves music more? Thats a silly question with no right answer. They both love music, just enjoy listening in different ways.
Some folks seem to think that there way of listening is the only right way, and the only pure way to practice this hobby. Bollocks. That is the path that YOU enjoy, but that is not the only path. This is coming from a person who bought a house with the specific intention of substantially altering the structure so that he could have a dedicated listening room. In fact this was my one non-negotiable item: find a house with a finished or partially finished garage that could be made into a media paradise. You could say that, from one perspective, I bought a listening room with a house attached to keep my wife happy. But I also know for a fact that my friend Shawna, who has her single set of speakers stacked cause that works best with her space requirements, loves music just as much as I do.
here's another question:
have any of you who have talked to these kids with there ipods tried replacing their ear buds with better 'phones and asking them which ones they prefer? Maybe they don't know what is possible in that area with just a small investment, you know? Hifi doesn't always have to be giant speakers and separates, does it? BTW, I know several folks who don't own any stereo at all, but have nice headphone amps attached to their computers.