blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
Got to agree with your taste in music.
Why Our Hobby Won't Grow
- Thread starter carbonman
- Start date
Got to agree with your taste in music.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
I think it will be interesting to see how the LP love wanes as the boomers age. There are many that are religious in the insistence the LP is better, but mostly in the boomer age group, and as they age and die the demand for the "high end" LP playback system, as I see it, will wane, possibly die out. They said that as long as there are mediums there will be players made for it. Not true. Where are the new Laserdisc players, 8 tracks.... once something is made done/gone/obsolete it quickly fades out. Look at VHS already....
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
I invite you a couple of blocks west to counter your thoughts about it being just about nostalgia.
I admit to liking the feel of vinyl, but in my own system there is absolutely no contest on sound. The LP wipes the floor with digital, and I'm not running a terrible CD player, nor do I have anything against digital as I own thousands of CDs. I just wish it sounded as 'live' and real as vinyl (I said it..I said vinyl). Last night another AKer and I listened to LPs for several hours. We played a few CDs but gravitated right back to LP. It's all just personal preference, of course, but there are a few of us (and a few of us who aren't boomers) who are very passionate about records because of the sound, not just the tactile experience. It's a b**ch getting all that sound off of them, I'll admit that, and not cheap.
But I also think that the cost of getting all that info off of the record is going to keep LPs in a very niche market for as long as they last. Many are playing for nostalgia without ever realizing just how much information is on an LP.
But the very fact in the post you make is its downfall. Getting a really good analog signal is not cheap, at all, and the mechanical details are too much for many. A good CDP, at about $3000, can deliver a sound that is clear, strong, good.... and there are no skips, levers, lifting to change sides...... I agree for you LP may be better and the way to go but many do not want the "religious" hassle associated with them.
Myself, I am looking forward to getting a GOOD LP system in my stereo, but I am not worried if I DON'T get it. My CDP is so good I feel no loss.
But you and I are in a small minority of aficianados, and like the others, will continue to be a small, but dedicated group.
One paradox of the LP thing is that some people say LPs sound immediately better regardless of the quality of the gear and other LP lovers take the view that it takes pretty good gear to get an improvement. I've talked to young people, hipsters and such (hipsters indeed, Lenny Bruce and Red Rodney are rolling in their graves) who have turntables plugged directly into line inputs on modern HT receivers and report great "analog" sound, that despite the fact there is no RIAA equalization on the input used. When I ask if they're using an outboard phono section or a turntable with a built in preamp I get blank stares. God knows what that really sounds like.
However the modern trend to LPs and the lack of phono inputs on so much modern gear seems to have made for a nice little business in outboard phono preamps.
I still use a laserdisc player, more for CDs than for LDs though I do still have a few dozen LDs of pictures that haven't made it to DVD or aren't worth replacing with DVDs.
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I am aging via sleep stage, and my love for the discs has not waned.
70salesguy
Only 99 easy payments!
Physical media
And this is one of the things about our "march of technology" that saddens me.
The vinyl LP represented, in some ways, the pinnacle of physical media. Prior to it, most 78 rpm records came only in a paper sleeve, the 45 sleeve was simular with the exception of the full-jacket sleeves which were mostly graphics and minimal information.
The vinyl LP jacket was a move that allowed for the more effective "marketing" of the music and/or the artist. Large amounts of information could be conveyed on the rear of the jacket, marvelous photos and/or graphics had a large canvas on the front, the space available for photos and/or information could be tripled via a fold-open cover and additional inserts could be placed inside the jacket.
The possibilities for marketing were virtually unlimited, as we all are aware of many very unique concepts used on quite a few albums (the zipper covers come to mind). This "artform" certainly peaked in the 60's and 70's only to decline with the market prescence of cassettes and to a lesser degree, the CD.
The CD still had a viable option, but at approximately 25% of the area as a vinyl LP cover, the impact of graphics was minimalized, and marketing creativity somewhat limited to tin-boxes or multi-cd sets.
I always found a certain sense of satisfaction looking at a vinyl LP jacket while playing a new LP. Much information could be conveyed and I felt more "connected" as a result.
As a young man interested in both music and electronics, it struck me one day when looking at an 8-track tape, exactly what the future of music media would be! It was clear as day! Up until that time, music media have involved some movement of media, some form of a "transport". From the foil cyclinder to a wax one, to the 78 rpm record to the 45 to the 33, from open-reel tape to 8-track to cassette, and even later than the time of this thought to the cd, ALL music media involved rotation or motion! It occurred to me that the future would have to be reproduction with no physical movement, which could only be achieved with electronics! After much thought on the subject, I determined that the future would be a "chip" located in some type of holder that would be inserted into a player in a manner reminiscent of sticking an 8-track tape in a player. The music would be permanently programmed on this chip and would be played with no physical movement. I envisoned this piece of media to be about the size of a book of matches, which would allow for a protective outer case. A concept not unlike that of a present day "thumb drive".
I envisoned a time where you would stroll down the aisles of your local Camelot or whatever and select your choice which would be packaged in a larger outer box in a fashion somewhat like the infamous CD "longbox" or other device designed to discourage theft.
And it would have happened just that way except for one thing........the internet!
The ability to stream or download from the internet "skipped" this step and rendered the ownership of "physical media" unneccessary. Otherwise, you might be buying your new release on a thumb drive or something simular!
Although I am not a luddite, I find the lack of physical media to be somewhat unsettling. There is a scene in the movie Time after Time, which involves the story of H.G. Wells time machine. In this movie, an acquaintance of Wells is actually Jack the Ripper, and uses Wells machine to escape into the future, which happens to be modern day San Francisco. The machine returns to Wells and he uses it to persue the criminal. At one point, a sympathetic bank employee invites Wells to dinner at her apartment and after inspecting her apartment, he asks "Where are your books"?, a refelection concerning the contradiction between the two time periods that are the home of the two characters, H.G. Wells and the bank employee.
After all our posts concerning "25,000 LPs" and our admiration of large vinyl collections, it seems so sad that modern day digital media devotees should have no physical media! I saw a 200 disc Sony CD Carousel for sale at a yard sale for only $20. I asked the gentleman if it worked, and he said yes, that it had belonged to his daughter, now in college, but that she had gotten rid of all of her CDs and now had only an iPod!
I have an iPod Nano as well, and it was bought primarily for use when flying and to enjoy when out of town and in a hotel room., so I am not a total card-carrying Luddite! But somehow the concept of no physical media seems so sad to me. I have visions of a scenario where a persons total collection of non-physical media is corrupted or worse yet, completed deleted! As a businessman who uses computers, I understand the concepts of backups, outboard drives and even backup services such as Carbonite and others should provide assurances that this doesn't happen, but in spite of all this, some people will lose their digital media.
The question becomes this, will physical media completely go away or will it always be present? Not talking about the physical media that already exists, but will there come a time where no physical media is sold?
And this is one of the things about our "march of technology" that saddens me.
The vinyl LP represented, in some ways, the pinnacle of physical media. Prior to it, most 78 rpm records came only in a paper sleeve, the 45 sleeve was simular with the exception of the full-jacket sleeves which were mostly graphics and minimal information.
The vinyl LP jacket was a move that allowed for the more effective "marketing" of the music and/or the artist. Large amounts of information could be conveyed on the rear of the jacket, marvelous photos and/or graphics had a large canvas on the front, the space available for photos and/or information could be tripled via a fold-open cover and additional inserts could be placed inside the jacket.
The possibilities for marketing were virtually unlimited, as we all are aware of many very unique concepts used on quite a few albums (the zipper covers come to mind). This "artform" certainly peaked in the 60's and 70's only to decline with the market prescence of cassettes and to a lesser degree, the CD.
The CD still had a viable option, but at approximately 25% of the area as a vinyl LP cover, the impact of graphics was minimalized, and marketing creativity somewhat limited to tin-boxes or multi-cd sets.
I always found a certain sense of satisfaction looking at a vinyl LP jacket while playing a new LP. Much information could be conveyed and I felt more "connected" as a result.
As a young man interested in both music and electronics, it struck me one day when looking at an 8-track tape, exactly what the future of music media would be! It was clear as day! Up until that time, music media have involved some movement of media, some form of a "transport". From the foil cyclinder to a wax one, to the 78 rpm record to the 45 to the 33, from open-reel tape to 8-track to cassette, and even later than the time of this thought to the cd, ALL music media involved rotation or motion! It occurred to me that the future would have to be reproduction with no physical movement, which could only be achieved with electronics! After much thought on the subject, I determined that the future would be a "chip" located in some type of holder that would be inserted into a player in a manner reminiscent of sticking an 8-track tape in a player. The music would be permanently programmed on this chip and would be played with no physical movement. I envisoned this piece of media to be about the size of a book of matches, which would allow for a protective outer case. A concept not unlike that of a present day "thumb drive".
I envisoned a time where you would stroll down the aisles of your local Camelot or whatever and select your choice which would be packaged in a larger outer box in a fashion somewhat like the infamous CD "longbox" or other device designed to discourage theft.
And it would have happened just that way except for one thing........the internet!
The ability to stream or download from the internet "skipped" this step and rendered the ownership of "physical media" unneccessary. Otherwise, you might be buying your new release on a thumb drive or something simular!
Although I am not a luddite, I find the lack of physical media to be somewhat unsettling. There is a scene in the movie Time after Time, which involves the story of H.G. Wells time machine. In this movie, an acquaintance of Wells is actually Jack the Ripper, and uses Wells machine to escape into the future, which happens to be modern day San Francisco. The machine returns to Wells and he uses it to persue the criminal. At one point, a sympathetic bank employee invites Wells to dinner at her apartment and after inspecting her apartment, he asks "Where are your books"?, a refelection concerning the contradiction between the two time periods that are the home of the two characters, H.G. Wells and the bank employee.
After all our posts concerning "25,000 LPs" and our admiration of large vinyl collections, it seems so sad that modern day digital media devotees should have no physical media! I saw a 200 disc Sony CD Carousel for sale at a yard sale for only $20. I asked the gentleman if it worked, and he said yes, that it had belonged to his daughter, now in college, but that she had gotten rid of all of her CDs and now had only an iPod!
I have an iPod Nano as well, and it was bought primarily for use when flying and to enjoy when out of town and in a hotel room., so I am not a total card-carrying Luddite! But somehow the concept of no physical media seems so sad to me. I have visions of a scenario where a persons total collection of non-physical media is corrupted or worse yet, completed deleted! As a businessman who uses computers, I understand the concepts of backups, outboard drives and even backup services such as Carbonite and others should provide assurances that this doesn't happen, but in spite of all this, some people will lose their digital media.
The question becomes this, will physical media completely go away or will it always be present? Not talking about the physical media that already exists, but will there come a time where no physical media is sold?
Yeah...that's why you see so many old people in the vinyl shops these days. Except...most of them are my age or younger, and I'm 31. Hmm. Hell, the music-themed mall clothing store "Hot Topic" has a pretty decent selection of new LPs.
I bought a new-issue LP (wasn't a repressing, it was a new indie release) , and when I opened it up a CD fell out. They're just throwing in CDs now! So, the argument is moot..
I wish Green Day would do that with "21st Century Breakdown" - I don't want to buy it twice!
I was thinking the same thing when I read that. I don't know when the last time was that I saw a boomer buying a record. But I do remember the last time I saw someone in their 20s buying one...about 5pm yesterday.
Anybody predicting the death of vinyl must not have spent the last 20 years collecting it. It's always been popular among a certain crowd, and it has grown steadily. I couldn't believe the number of new and reissued pressings when I visited the record store. They just moved across the street to a bigger location, too.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
Funny. I have kept mine, an entry level Pioneer (made in Japan, mind you) and it has low miles but I keep more for nostalgia than anything. It does play CD's so can be used, but like many things, it just sits in the closet as a reminder; for me, of my HT days.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
But John: you are forgetting most, if not ALL new vinyl releases are NOT the mass market ones from the past. Most are now the 180g, or better, audiophile pressings that are NOT cheap. I am not including the used LP stores (of which there is an EXCELLENT one near my house, 5 blocks in fact). There is a big difference from someone buying only high end pressings and one who hunts used stores exclusively. The cost of the high end pressings is enough to make me wonder. I understand they are not sold in volume, but with many over $80+ you have to wonder. And I am not even in the arena if it is better or not.
But to think vinyl will "live on forever" is a fool. The future is digital. Like it or not that is it. Either through a high end medium or downloads. If given a choice the wise one would be a high end, good quality DAC, not table. This is reality. Vinyl may live on, perhaps for decades, but it will ALWAYS be fringe and boutique. And unless something becomes mainstream it will remain expensive due to market realities and heightened value perception due to rarity. Not a good value.
most people I know do not really listen to music, they hear it and sing along. They do not sit and listen for the individual instruments, they like a catchy tune. It could all be synthesized for all they cared. Even when someone wants to check out my system, they are quiet for about 30 seconds - i do not think i know anyone who could actually sit thru a whole song and just listen. Even if they have a wow moment, they still do not really just sit and listen.
Seriously, think about it - how many "normal" people do you know that just sit and listen to music ? Usually it is just background noise.
Seriously, think about it - how many "normal" people do you know that just sit and listen to music ? Usually it is just background noise.
Mark W.
Nut house of the Universe
When I go to the used record shops I don't see goober that look you bunch running through the crates I see high school and college age kids buying LP's
Last two big record shows I attended at least 25% of the people in the rooms were under 30 and most well under 30.
Now are they buying vinyl to needle drop the tunes into their I pods things hmmm maybe But I don't think so.
As to our hobby growing hell in the time since I joined AK in the fall of 2005 it has grown expediently
Last two big record shows I attended at least 25% of the people in the rooms were under 30 and most well under 30.
Now are they buying vinyl to needle drop the tunes into their I pods things hmmm maybe But I don't think so.
As to our hobby growing hell in the time since I joined AK in the fall of 2005 it has grown expediently
Bingo! Hasn't that always been the case? While I'm just short of being a 'boomer' (47) , I've been the odd man out most of my life when it comes to music and it's reproduction. I drive my family nuts with "Nickel Trivia"-when a song comes on the radio I proclaim "Nickel Trivia" and whoever can name the artist and song title gets a nickel. My family hates me.
We're an odd bunch , and there will probably always be a market for us , but vinyl fans have access to a type of sound that digital can't touch. If I had as much money in my TT as I do in my CD player I would be even more gung-ho for LPs. I recently scored a clean , original "Houses Of The Holy" and I love it. There is just some music that ain't right when digital. Led Zep and Black Sabbath have always sounded awful on CD , but a lot of younger fans of 'vintage' rock don't know the difference.
I'll go with the advice of Crosby , Stills , and Nash-"Teach your children well". My 9 year old can't wait until I kick off so she can play her Hannah Montana CDs on "Dad's stereo". *sigh*
Scuzzer
Fixed Bias
Don't shortchange yourself. By most definitions you are a baby boomer since you were born before the end of 1964. I missed it by 6 weeks so I can still bitch about the boomers and not point a finger at myself.
Vinyl already is niche, I'm not trying to pursuade anybody that it isn't. I'm just telling you that, in my 20 years of collecting vinyl, the ration of under-40 to over-40 in the record store must be 10 to 1 in favor of the kids. And what pressings are you buying that are $80? There is plently of high quality vinyl being pressed that is no more than the price of a CD, and little more than the price of an album on iTunes.
Why is the wise choice a high quality DAC? Why is it a choice at all? I happen to enjoy my music in multiple formats. Even MP3. But to argue that it's going to die off anytime is to admit that you've not been to a record store in a college town recently, and probably haven't heard what vinyl is capable of.
I'll take a growing fringe market over a dying fringe market any day. And what new vinyl releases are you talking about that cost $80? The most expensive I've seen recently are in the $40-$50 range, and those include multi-disc sets like PF's "Echoes."
Well put. One doesn't have to listen to only one format. Right now I can play just about ever major music format except for Edison cylinder, 78, those big RCA cassettes from the late 50s and Elcaset. I routinely play CDs, 8-tracks, cassettes and RtR tapes in addition to my vinyl.
I think some people just like to complain that the sky is falling, even if it's demonstrably stuck where it's always been.
Record companies are embracing LPs because it is the last medium that you can't download. At least that is the case with the major lables. The small ones might just, in fact, love vinyl.
LPs aren't going to suddenly take over, and be the medium of choice for the masses. But there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they'll die off as a medium any time soon. There are more records being pressed, and more record players being made, than a decade ago, when people had all but written it off (while my friends and I, in our early 20s, kept buying it anyway, even though we didn't have great record players).
I'm one of those hipster kids that everybody speaks so skeptically about, by the way. We're not all spinning our records on fisher price portables
LPs aren't going to suddenly take over, and be the medium of choice for the masses. But there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they'll die off as a medium any time soon. There are more records being pressed, and more record players being made, than a decade ago, when people had all but written it off (while my friends and I, in our early 20s, kept buying it anyway, even though we didn't have great record players).
I'm one of those hipster kids that everybody speaks so skeptically about, by the way. We're not all spinning our records on fisher price portables
Harmonica
Certified AK Enabler
I read the article the OP posted and I have to say I do see the sorts of things it talks about happening all around me. Does that mean high end audio will go the way of the Dodo? I don't think so at all. I am a 21 year old college student and it does make me sad when I see a huge percentage of my peers with nothing but ipod buds/dock for their music but I also have several friends who take pride in their audio set ups just as I do (well, maybe not quite as much 
). Also, when I go hunting for records I often see other people my age doing the same.
What does frustrate me though is the "good enough" syndrome. No matter what capabilities technology can offer in meshing hifi with convenience, it won't matter if all my peers get stuck in the mind set of "good enough." I get asked all the time "Mike, why did you get more speakers, whats wrong with your others?" the obvious answer is that I found something better that I can afford to replace the old, but so many people don't get that! So many people are stuck in a low quality mp3 rut and don't see the point of looking for something better, even though they buy new/better TV's, phones, and computers all the time.
I think eventually this will resolve its self to an extent though, just like a couple of people have said before, digital audio technology is young and will be changing and improving vastly. Those garbage ipod buds can't last forever, just like tub TV's haven't. I just try to do my part and show people what they are missing in their music listening.
Trust me, I've been bitten by the bug hard, and I will try my best to carry the torch so to speak.
). Also, when I go hunting for records I often see other people my age doing the same.What does frustrate me though is the "good enough" syndrome. No matter what capabilities technology can offer in meshing hifi with convenience, it won't matter if all my peers get stuck in the mind set of "good enough." I get asked all the time "Mike, why did you get more speakers, whats wrong with your others?" the obvious answer is that I found something better that I can afford to replace the old, but so many people don't get that! So many people are stuck in a low quality mp3 rut and don't see the point of looking for something better, even though they buy new/better TV's, phones, and computers all the time.
I think eventually this will resolve its self to an extent though, just like a couple of people have said before, digital audio technology is young and will be changing and improving vastly. Those garbage ipod buds can't last forever, just like tub TV's haven't. I just try to do my part and show people what they are missing in their music listening.
Trust me, I've been bitten by the bug hard, and I will try my best to carry the torch so to speak.
marc mc
Super Member
There is far more to it than the birthdate. This forum is hardly the place for a discussion of it but for those that are interested I recommend you investigate it. Especially if you were born at the tail end of the boomers! You will find answers to questions about yourself that may suprise you. Generations are more like seasons of society than you would think. The boomers like every other generation actually think a certain way, and see the world a certain way. It's like an encoding.
The boomers are in their "visionary" elderhood and the ones that were into audio are buying their last great system and ultra rare vintage collections. The X er's and later for the most part have bought used since they started and plan on keeping it that way. And as anyone with a clue about buisness models should be able to see, that is not sustainable for the long term. In other words though music will be listened too on various medium forever. The High-End has the death rattle in it's throat and it's end is inevitable.
Here is a micro snapshot. I've read many others but I like this one and it does show the generation cycles.
http://jamesrbrett.com/TheSilentGeneration/sgcohort.html
marc mc
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