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Why Our Hobby Won't Grow

<snip> The High-End has the death rattle in it's throat and it's end is inevitable.


Here is a micro snapshot. I've read many others but I like this one and it does show the generation cycles.

http://jamesrbrett.com/TheSilentGeneration/sgcohort.html

marc mc

What a complete and total over-simplification. Suffocated? Someone forgot to tell us, we had a ball as kids in the thirties. And so now I am supposed to be a visionary, what a hoot.

As to a death rattle save that for the iPods and MP3, as long as classical music is loved no one will be content to play it on that sort of junk. Perhaps a generation that is content with the lousy sound of cell phones will not take to classical music, but no matter they will probably all be gone with brain tumors from their phones.
:music:
 
It is a simplification! (this is an audio forum) It was intented to peak the interest of those interested in looking deeper. And to show there is a general trend that is outside birthdates. But for the record, they were called "The Silent Generation" for a reason. That does not mean they all are. The lady in charge of the outing I was on yesterday was anything but silent. She had a mike, but she did not need one.

BTW the silents are seen as indecisive not visionaries now.


marc mc
 
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Not being a boomer I would not know, what I do know is that to draw a single profile for all people born between certain dates is foolish in the extreme.

BTW the word is 'pique'.
 
Not being a boomer I would not know, what I do know is that to draw a single profile for all people born between certain dates is foolish in the extreme.

Of course and It is not a single profile it is a guide. Not all birds fly south the same day and trees don't start to change at the same time. And some don't go south or change colors at all. I know that! If your an X er or younger though I have seen many get a better understanding of things around them. Thats all, i am not going to wreck this great thread because you don't fit the profile. :thmbsp:

BTW the word is 'pique'.

First time I ever typed that word. :D

BTW as for classical music. I'm pretty sure that our national radio station recently pulled the plug on classical programs.

marc mc
 
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I'll take a growing fringe market over a dying fringe market any day. . . . One doesn't have to listen to only one format. Right now I can play just about ever major music format except for Edison cylinder, 78, those big RCA cassettes from the late 50s and Elcaset. I routinely play CDs, 8-tracks, cassettes and RtR tapes in addition to my vinyl.
. . .
I think some people just like to complain that the sky is falling, even if it's demonstrably stuck where it's always been.


When I miss a day checking AK, and discover there are 4 thousand new posts, it is hard for me, like Sam, to consider that "the hobby" is dying at this moment, especially when I consider that this is only one of the many English online audio forums, including several that are devoted to various niches within the audio realm.

I agree that audio is changing rapidly, but when was it not doing that? I can only now afford the mid-fi analog equipment of the early 70's I would have liked to have owned then, meanwhile much has changed in what is offered on the audio store shelves and showrooms. But I find that I am not alone, others here, with better credentials than me, are devoted to some equipment similar to mine. If I found my niche, why complain?

I don't want to make any sweeping generalizations about the younger generation, even if I am not much interested in listening to their popular music. I realize that they are not a monolithic group as far as tastes and interests go, just as my peers and I were not in the late '60s. One of my friends was consumed with buying every Elvis recording, when the rest of us thought Elvis's career was long over (this was before Elvis died and everyone suddenly, almost inexplicably to some of us, startd calling him the "King of Rock and Roll". At the time, I could barely afford to buy any LP I liked, unless it showed up in the $2.77 rack at the discount store. But like a 15-year-old today, discovering vinyl with Granddad's old system, I bought a table-top Victrola with a broken mainspring for 12 bucks, fixed it, and began enlarging my 78 collection at thrift stores and garage sales.

When I was in college, my wealthier classmates had gigantic speakers, powerful amps, expensive turntables, and several feet of LP albums lined up on their shelves. We'd sit around listening to them, examining and discussing the album covers, and going through the rituals of operating the equipment. Today, in the dorm room (or carried with the kid everywhere) even larger collections of tunes fit on tiny chips, there are no album covers, and the speakers are tiny or non-existent in some cases. The experience is VERY different for the typical young person. Perhaps the social part of the experience is in texting a link to a hip download offering, not in something I would recognize. Where's the black light and incense? -- a voice deep inside me wants to ask.

I think what young people are used to, however, doesn't necessarily predict what they are capable of appreciating. Some will be exposed to better musical sources and other technologies and will take advantage of them. Others won't bother, or won't consider spending more to hear some music better when they could spend that money on the next incarnation of wireless gadgets. At the same time, others will become vintage vinyl and tube equipment nuts. Some will amass cassette or even 8-track collections. Some will buy 2000 dollar speakers, 3000 dollar turntables, 4000 dollar record cleaners, and 5000 dollar phono cartridges, and, when venturing into the digital realm, will only listen to "loss-less" formats. Some will set up high-end audio twitter networks, and may have already done so (it's not like I'd know about it).

As for ones who go on preferring MP3s, some of whom keep the earbuds in and turned up full blast for about 18 hours a day, perhaps they simply cannot hear the difference between a condensed MP3 and something better. Their enthusiasm for their age's technology may have correspondingly condensed their hearing. Those of us who lost some hearing at Rock concerts in the '70s might recognize a little of ourselves in that.
 
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Generations. Makes me feel old, when a couple of pals and I started one of of Chicago's first Punk bands in 1977 it seemed that musicians like Fats Domino, Elvis, Frankie Lyman and the Teenagers and Chuck Berry were from the distant past yet Rock and Roll music was only about 22 years old at the time. Now far more time has passed from the beginning of Punk to now than from the beginning of Rock and Roll to the beginning of Punk.
 
Why is the wise choice a high quality DAC? Why is it a choice at all? I happen to enjoy my music in multiple formats. Even MP3. But to argue that it's going to die off anytime is to admit that you've not been to a record store in a college town recently, and probably haven't heard what vinyl is capable of.

My system is pretty expensive, and I have explored the vinyl playback option carefully, and yes, I have heard it and was willing to spend upwards of $5000 in January for a table, arm and cartridge. And I am aware of what vinyl is capable of, but more importantly, WHAT IT IS NOT CAPABLE OF. Yes, you cannot download vinyl and I am aware the music industry is reeling from the fact there is no way to capitalize on the digital end with downloads which can be pirated. In the old days, you had to steal the cassette or CD.

I find it funny you completely dismiss the fact that digital is path ahead of us. This is not my opinion but economic and market fact. Since most music will be in the digital format, the DAC, and a good one, will be "hub" of whatever future we will have.

Your assertion of going to a college town for me to be informed is not needed. I attended university for 7 years and in all that time, among the many I met and spoke to, I was the only person I could find who was into audio the way I am. I did meet people into music from the instrument point of view, but from an audiophile point of view I was alone. I cannot recall an audiophile club at the university either, but there was a Warhammer Society (this was before the computer game) and Dungeons and Dragons society, but no audiophile club. None. And the University of British Columbia is no hick school.

I think the issue is very polarizing in the fact that in order to be into vinyl one has to believe it is at least equal, if not better, than digital. But history clearly shows that style and trends are cyclic, and I am sure that vinyl right now is on the top end of the sine wave. If it goes down, and I think it will (most certainly it will if high res digital dowloads become the norm; think mass market SACD) I am not sure it will rise again. True, vinyl listening is more engaging, involved and technically detailed, and I love tinkering, experimenting, but I am someone who has put the vinyl system on the bottom of my list simply because it is, to me, different, not better.

In the relation to pressing costs, I am referring to the high end discs which are limited and exclusive. In fact, I have hunted record stores to find music to listen to and I am not into indie/underground music. I cannot find a lot of the music I like on vinyl, so like the SACD, if you have no mediums, you have no need for the playback system. It could be just the case it is me with my musical tastes, but I seem to find everything just fine on digital, and I am going to stick with it and bank on the fact it is the future. Probably not in the form of a medium or the CD, but digital for sure.
 
Blackfly, I don't know where you're getting that I'm dismissing digital as the way of the future. For mainstream music, and probably most audiophiles, it obviously is where things are headed. I'm just saying that there won't be an end to vinyl. It's just one of many mediums, and the only one that can't be copied bit-for-bit.

It may not survive as an audiophile format of choice, but it will survive in the hands of music lovers.

The best recording I have ever heard was a digital file directly off of a soundboard in the studio it was recorded in, over gigantic studio monitors. I am not against digital at all.
 
what band was that Tom?

Generations. Makes me feel old, when a couple of pals and I started one of of Chicago's first Punk bands in 1977 it seemed that musicians like Fats Domino, Elvis, Frankie Lyman and the Teenagers and Chuck Berry were from the distant past yet Rock and Roll music was only about 22 years old at the time. Now far more time has passed from the beginning of Punk to now than from the beginning of Rock and Roll to the beginning of Punk.

I was around the punk scene at that time too....just curious.

And just so this post is not entirely OT, I do believe that the next generation will be interested in the best possible sound quality once they start making the income...and digital will advance to the point where what we are now seeing as "HD tracks" will be the standard resolution.

The future looks good from where I sit
 
I think the issue is very polarizing in the fact that in order to be into vinyl one has to believe it is at least equal, if not better, than digital.

Thats an issue and I am surprised by the audio guys that think "all" analog rigs are better than digital. I mean no offence but I would take a decent CDP over most the TT's people are trying to employ. There was a guy that made this point the other day about people running tt's into HT recievers etc. The vinyl buying of audiophiles is a sliver and many of them are using tables that were laughed at when vinyl ruled. And the kids today that are buying records are playing them on junk.

I am into vinyl because I have an awesome record collection. I bought the ones that everyone was tossing in the 80' and 90's. But if I was starting out today and knew what I know I would go digital. As much as I like vinyl I think that unless you already have a ton of good records and are willing to spend at least $1000 for a TT it's not worth it. And I get new vinyl at cost.

marc mc
 
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Of course and It is not a single profile it is a guide. Not all birds fly south the same day and trees don't start to change at the same time. And some don't go south or change colors at all. I know that! If your an X er or younger though I have seen many get a better understanding of things around them. Thats all, i am not going to wreck this great thread because you don't fit the profile. :thmbsp:



First time I ever typed that word. :D

BTW as for classical music. I'm pretty sure that our national radio station recently pulled the plug on classical programs.

marc mc

Hardly an X'er if we were kids in the 30's and classical music is going great here in Charm City and NPR is playing it as well in DC. If the Cosmic Butterfly Corporation has abandoned classical music someone in HQ needs a slap upside the head.:D
 
Thats an issue and I am surprised by the audio guys that think "all" analog rigs are better than digital. I mean no offence but I would take a decent CDP over most the TT's people are trying to employ. There was a guy that made this point the other day about people running tt's into HT recievers etc. The vinyl buying of audiophiles is a sliver and many of them are using tables that were laughed at when vinyl ruled. And the kids today that are buying records are playing them on junk.

I am into vinyl because I have an awesome record collection. I bought the ones that everyone was tossing in the 80' and 90's. But if I was starting out today and knew what I know I would go digital. As much as I like vinyl I think that unless you already have a ton of good records and are willing to spend at least $1000 for a TT it's not worth it. And I get new vinyl at cost.

marc mc

Someone made that claim last week in Steve Hoffman forums, that he had a cheap, $80 TT that beats digital rigs that cost $1,000. There is no arguing when someone makes a claim like that.

I also bought a lot of vinyl in the 80s when people were selling it off cheap, and I have also concluded that I would probably buy into vinyl today if I were just starting out. It is good, but it is not cheap, and it is probably a dead end for our hobby. I stated earlier why, that vinyl will never be the type of cheap, mass produced format it was 40 years ago because nobody has invested in new technology to actually manufacture records, so eventually the pressing of records will no longer be technologically feasible as the machinery become increasingly more suited to a museum than to a modern factory.

So out of necessity, the hobby will have to move to more sophisticated downloads or high resolution storage/playback devices, with better user interfaces, probably linked to the internet. There is a devise out there Soolos or Solos, but it is very expensive. I would expect prices to come down to hundreds, rather than thousands of dollars in the years to come, while on the hardware side, maybe those soundbars people use for home theaters might serve as a starting point for a high resolution, flexible and convenient high end system.
 
It may not survive as an audiophile format of choice, but it will survive in the hands of music lovers.

And that's really the thing isn't it, loving music. What formats one uses depends on what formats the music you love is available on. There are devotees of early 20th Century Pop and Jazz who listen to 78s because that's what the music is on.

Note that a great deal of mid to late 20th Century Pop music is easily available at cheap prices on LPs. I'll hit a used record store and pick up something like the Little Steven album for a fin, that's good music at a good price.

I can listen to LPs, 45s, CDs, SACDs, LDs and jump drives through my hi-fi. But not 78s. :)
 
Hardly an X'er if we were kids in the 30's and classical music is going great here in Charm City and NPR is playing it as well in DC. If the Cosmic Butterfly Corporation has abandoned classical music someone in HQ needs a slap upside the head.:D

Now thats funny!

Who needs them! The truth be told, I never and mean never listen to radio. And my classical collection is steller :thmbsp: Along with the ones I had bought over the years I had a very nice older audiophile give me his collection a few years ago. He was in the habit of taping everything onto his real to real so they are mint.

marc mc
 
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Someone made that claim last week in Steve Hoffman forums, that he had a cheap, $80 TT that beats digital rigs that cost $1,000. There is no arguing when someone makes a claim like that.

Thats what I mean. I see a fair bit of that here and I think it's total nonsense.

marc mc
 
I suspect many of the posters in this thread can, and do, actively listen to music on 3-6 different recording formats, though each may have strong favorites among them, and, for some of them, not necessarily all of the qualities they prize most in a recording are satisfied by the latest digital innovation. That doesn't make such people luddites or even particularly polarized on the issue. How can you be polarized when you span such a wide range of appreciation?
 
Someone made that claim last week in Steve Hoffman forums, that he had a cheap, $80 TT that beats digital rigs that cost $1,000. There is no arguing when someone makes a claim like that.

What you can buy new for $80 and what you can buy used for $80, especially if you're lucky at garage/estate sales and auctions, are quite different. Hell, didn't someone around here find a Linn or Rega in the trash?
 
There is far more to it than the birthdate. This forum is hardly the place for a discussion of it but for those that are interested I recommend you investigate it. Especially if you were born at the tail end of the boomers! You will find answers to questions about yourself that may suprise you. Generations are more like seasons of society than you would think. The boomers like every other generation actually think a certain way, and see the world a certain way. It's like an encoding.

The boomers are in their "visionary" elderhood and the ones that were into audio are buying their last great system and ultra rare vintage collections. The X er's and later for the most part have bought used since they started and plan on keeping it that way. And as anyone with a clue about buisness models should be able to see, that is not sustainable for the long term. In other words though music will be listened too on various medium forever. The High-End has the death rattle in it's throat and it's end is inevitable.


Here is a micro snapshot. I've read many others but I like this one and it does show the generation cycles.

http://jamesrbrett.com/TheSilentGeneration/sgcohort.html

marc mc

I do believe that I'm going to call "hogwash" on that.
 
My 9 year old can't wait until I kick off so she can play her Hannah Montana CDs on "Dad's stereo".

Why don't you let her play her music on your stereo, even occasionally? It would be a great way to introduce her to good audio equipment. Yes, you may be tortured by having to listen to music you don't like, but if that does get her interested in good audio equipment, it could save you the torture of listening to a cheap junky horrible-sounding pair of speakers she might buy otherwise.
 
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