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Why the disdain towards direct-drive TTs from some audiophiles?

ODS123 said:
There is no good reason for the distain...

DD turntables turn the record at the right speed and keep it that way.... Simple as that. What puts people off is the association with hip hop turntablists who use DD tables (usually Technics SL-1200 derivatives).

The problems of Vinyl playback were largely solved by DD tables. The differences people claim to hear from exotic tonearms, 6" 40lb platters, etc... are largely imagined, IMHO.
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I’m not certain the 2 examples you cite are the best. Tone arms matter. Platter mass is an effective decoupling method, along with the speed stabilization of the flywheel effect.

Not that you don’t have a point, just that some of those improvements came at the expense of very extensive R&D. If there were no benefit, there would be no market.
 
Isaac C. said:
I agree about belt drives receiving a lot of promotion. I wasn't alive then, but catalogs reveal that Technics and Sony were the first companies to commercialize the DC servo direct drive units in the early 70s. Furthermore, belt drives were around almost a decade earlier, meaning consumers were more familiar with them.
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I really think this is a big part of it. As with belt drives, DD's have gotten better as well. And as stated earlier the advent of the CD did slow the progression of the DD.
 
My $.02: Leaving aside the question of SQ, DD tables have one practical advantage: generous torque. For using a Discwasher or other cleaning method that puts some pressure on a spinning platter, DD (and presumably idlers) won't bog down. If you're on this forum, chances are you have more than one TT, and you can make an argument that at least one should be DD.
 
Because of a successful campaign of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) from the British and European turntable manufacturers who lacked the technical skill and manufacturing precision to compete with the Japanese direct-drive turntables, and whose own attempts at producing direct-drive turntables proved to be unsuccessful (for example, the Garrard DD75). Because they could never make motors quiet enough for direct-drive (Garrard had to buy theirs from Technics), they decided to give up on the idea and tout the isolating property of a belt as not just a saving grace for their noisy motors but actually as an advantage!
 
As a tinkerer and a cheapo guy who dig through the low-price-level-mud for dirt cheap deals on miserable poor fixer-upper turntables I stay away from direct drives. Why? A lot of wierd little colorful components where Mr Farad, Mrs Ohm and the Ampere family can cause a lot of mischief (not to mention those IC guys)that I don't understand or know how to fix.
Looking under the hood of an idler or belt drive,a bit of headscratching usually is all it takes to understand what's going on.

Sonically I have no grudge at all with DD:s.
 
Mr Boochie said:
Notice how in many of these types of threads, the OP never returns to comment? What could this mean? :D
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Just here to learn as much as I can, that's what it is :).

It started w/owning both a belt-drive and a DD table, and liking both - and wondering why so many shots get fired between the die-hard fans from each camp? Interesting to learn about the fear-mongering tactics used against DD by European competitors though - it's certainly not the first story of such that I've read about in the history of hi-fi gear.

Actually, maybe this bad reputation that DD seems to have among some of the audiophiles is a good thing - seems to help keep the prices of quality vintage DD tables at a reasonable level :p.
 
Okay. :) As an empirical test... You have $1000. You have to buy one turntable with cartridge attached. What would you buy, right now. New or used?

Your response could help those answering the original post. :thumbsup:
 
I think its a bit mixed. Yes, the best direct drives are in my opinion better than belt drives in that price range, and above ( controversial opinion, and I say this having listened to a somewhat limited set of high end belt drives - My comparison is based on Technics SL 1200 vs Garrard 301/VPI Scout/Some high ish end thorens, and listening to fairly VG/VG+ vinyl) Some will argue that you need a $$$$ cart, NM records, a fully overhauled machine and all sorts of ideal conditions for these belt drives to reveal their true selves
On the other end, entry level DD tables are automatically assumed to be better than their corresponding belt drives, which is not exactly true - I have a Sony PS T1 which is throughly unremarkable, even compared to later BPC belt drives)
 
Sitting listening to my sl1200g and I have never heard a belt drive sound this good.
Dies not mean it does not exist though. Drive method is not important, I love my direct drives and my idlers, even my belt drive. Far more too this than drive method.
Chris
 
I think one of the reasons is just basic consumerism: Direct drive became the dominant type at the peak of vinyl - the mainstream option, cranked out by the millions. High quality belt drives became a connoiseur niche and naturally that niche looked down on the mainstream 'big business' designs i.e direct drives and developed a whole narrative that was able to flourish after turntables were replaced by CDs. The niche remained and thus the man standing got the last word.

Happens with any hobby. There's an echelon that looks down on the mass market product and has its reasons. In the case of belt drives, with almost no serious direct drive competition after the 80s, they could say whatever they want and unfortunately a lot of people bought into it.

There's no best drive.
 
No disdain here for DD or non suspended tables. In fact future upgrades will all be DD for me. I'm rockin' a few Technics (SL-1400, 1700, and 1900). I've got bouncy floors so suspended belt drives are out. The Technics performs much better than my Thorens tables in this current setup. Even the SL-1900. Those Technics arms are better than I thought. With these floors, even the lowly AT-PL120 (with preamp removed, thick rubber mat, any decent cartridge instead of the stock one) works nicer than my TD-160. Speedwise too. Kinda suprising. It's dead on all the time with zero wow and flutter and no background or motor noise at all. Can't say that for too many belt drives. I have at least 15 or so different belt drive tables to play with right now and none have the speed stability of the cheaper AT-PL120 Quartz DD. And i suspect the Technics are equally as good or even better. Though none of my belt drives are problematic, they still are not to the DD stable speed level I'm experiencing now. I mean I never hear wow and flutter with my DDs. Must've been lucky I guess as some need caps replaced in the pitch/speed circuit usually after all these years. Does constant stable speed have a nice effect on sound.. I think it's quite a bit more significant than I gave notice to in earlier years when I wasn't into DD tables... for sure. So do I understand the disdain for DD tables other than many look too ordinary in appearance? Nope... at least not anymore after living with decent DDs for a while. Now if I had different floors I'd be tempted to go back to the Thorens just for curiosity and of course because I appreciate it's looks more. I still haven't set up my Sapphire II but that is supposed to be better with shaky floors than the average AR or Thorens suspended tables. Might give that a go. Just don't want to needlessly damage styli and records with bouncy decks. I say the turntable you choose is more dependent on the room you are putting it in. They can definitely all sound good.. but at the same time can sound wrong in the wrong environment.
 
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I've had both and like both. I prefer my belt drive machines, now, but that doesn't mean I won't prefer another DD at some point. Every turntable has sounded different to my ears, although I sometimes struggle with 'different' versus 'better'. There is something to the 'bass slam' aspect of DD in my experience, and there is something to the 'more nuanced sound' regarding belt drive, again only in my experience. Much of the fun of the hobby is in the equipment journey, that's the part I think I know.
 
The only knock that came against DD decks back then was that the motor was directly connected to the platter and if it burnt out, your tt was dead. I used to work in hifi retail back then and the DD's have proven us wrong. To my knowledge it had nothing to do with the British. Within a short span of time, we all realized that the DD drive system was really good (I actually owned 2 Goldmund DD decks around 1986). I worked in stores that had a lot of british gear and all we needed to tell a customer was to listen to and buy the turntable that draws you into the music the most. I sold Linn, Naim, Rega, Meridian, Sugden, Nytech... and none of their reps ever bashed a dd deck. It was just ignorance of the lifespan of the DD motor that was at issue back then. Were we right or wrong? You be the judge!
 
Back in the day (late 70's) I seem to remember the 'cogging' phenomenon (i.e. short term speed variation? - a form of 'wow' ? I think), being just one of the things against DD turntables, whether this was an invented phenomenon from those nay-sayers I don't know. And overall the figures for DD performance didn't seem significantly better than Belt drive - except quite often better for speed regulation. And lastly, I don't seem the remember there being much choice (unless you had deep pockets), when it came to choice of arms for DD turntables, this was at a time when (here in the UK), your turntable, arm, and cartridge, 'needed to be made by different manufacturers' or you weren't getting the best from your vinyl. ;)

But all this was over 40 years ago, and from my British point of view, so YMMV as they say. :)

At some point since then the performance of DD turntables, even the less expensive ones, has significantly exceeded Belt drive turntables, so they can be a fine choice for a good system. ;)
 
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