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Why these low watt vintage amplifiers sound so good...?

bikingbuddha

bikingbuddha

Well-Known Member
Hi everybody, I am kind of new to speakers and amplifiers and learned a lot from audiokarma and its friendly folks over the years. I am forever thankful to all of you ladies and gentlemen here.

When I sit back and listen to my "Pioneer SA-500A on Philips AD1255/M7" today I wondered i came across quite a number of amplifiers during the last few months and I found that these small low watt vintage amplifiers sound significantly better than new ones. Of course, I know that sound is a personal thing, and what sounds good to me might sound bad to others. That's a different story. when I search the internet a lot of people say the same thing.

What do you think...? is this some kind of placebo thing or it is really there...? what is the science behind this phenomenon among audio enthusiasts...?
 
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I think it comes down to japanese consumer gear being really good from that era. Your Pioneer is japanese and the seventies were the golden age of affordable audio components from japanese manufacturers, the product quality was good in that pricebracket. There was just a lot of R&D put in audio by these huge companies. And competition was fierce for low/low-to-mid/mid fi, it's a market that was taken seriously because it was lucrative. The smaller-powered offerings from that time lacked the features of the high end models, but they were still good quality.

In the past few years I bought a couple integrateds and receivers made between 1974-1978, usually not the very bottom model in the range(although sometime yes) but one or two model up the chain, and the stuff is SO good.
 
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The "new" amps of today, that I have heard, sound very good.

But after playing around with tube amps (60's), monster solid state receivers of the late 70's and some new gear, I am back to early 70's solid state amps with relatively low watts per channel (recapped).

I just like how they sound. This hobby is all about experimenting and learning, and trying new and old things.

Cheers,

Snade
 
I was listening to my main house system, Sony STR-7065(as a preamp\tuner) - Nikko Alpha II - RSL Elan speakers a little while ago. I am now listening one of my smaller systems
Kenwood KR-5400 and a pair of Panasonic 8" 2 ways and I don't think I give up too much over the other one. Sure the houue system sounds better but I enjoy the smaller one too. Still experimenting after over 55 years in the hobby. My oldest piece is a mid to late 60's receiver and my newest is mid 90's. Most of it is 70's to early 80's.
 
I ask that question about amps in general ..

I think that it's a balance thing .. roll the top a little but let the harmonics ring.. keep the midrange sweet and clear ..keep the bass fast and tight ..
Makes them easy to listen through to the music ..

I think that it's as much about what isn't there ...
No sharpness, edginess, or fakeness in the mid-range or treble ..
The best amps expose the details in the recording without hitting you over the head with them ..
 
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Final_Baton said:
I think it comes down to japanese consumer gear being really good from that era. ... There was just a lot of R&D put in audio by these huge companies."
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The Japanese government financed R&D, not the companies themselves. The Ministry of Trade and Industry (MITI) also subsidized manufacturing costs, shipping and foreign tariff costs, and funded distribution, marketing and advertising in export markets by hiring local ad agencies. The government kept the exchange rates artificially low, a further "subsidy" for exports, and protected local industries from foreign competition by imposing impossibly high import tariffs which essentially closed the home market to foreign products.

The pressure — and sheer hatred — from other countries against these policies was so intense Japan finally had to modify its policies, and defang MITI. Even so, the US virtually stopped making TVs, Radios and other appliances, and never even attempted to make an American VCR, the hottest selling consumer product of the 1980s. Detroit teetered on the edge of ruin, and the car industry in UK simply disappeared.

It was certainly a "Golden Age" for audio, but at a cost.
 
Final_Baton said:
I think it comes down to japanese consumer gear being really good from that era. ... There was just a lot of R&D put in audio by these huge companies."
Click to expand...
The Japanese government financed R&D, not the companies themselves. The Ministry of Trade and Industry (MITI) also subsidized manufacturing costs, shipping and foreign tariff costs, and funded distribution, marketing and advertising in export markets by hiring local ad agencies. The government kept the exchange rates artificially low, a further "subsidy" for exports, and protected local industries from foreign competition by imposing impossibly high import tariffs which essentially closed the home market to foreign products.

The pressure — and sheer hatred — from other countries against these policies was so intense Japan finally had to modify its policies. The WTO (World Trade Organization) was formed largely to contain Japan's excesses, and MITI quietly shut its doors.

Even so, the US virtually stopped making TVs, Radios and other appliances, and never even attempted to make an American VCR, the hottest selling consumer product of the 1980s. Detroit could barely compete, and the car industry in UK simply disappeared.

It was certainly a "Golden Age" for audio, but at a cost.
 
Snade said:
But after playing around with tube amps (60's), monster solid state receivers of the late 70's and some new gear, I am back to early 70's solid state amps with relatively low watts per channel (recapped).
Click to expand...

I've found the same thing. Early 70s solid state gear, made in Japan, typically in the 20 to 50 wpc range, is hard to beat for sound quality.

Sansui AU-777, Marantz 1060/2230, Sony TA-1130, Kenwood KA-6000, are just a few of many examples. Terrific build quality. Also, great price performance ratio when compared to monster receivers and tube amps.
 
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GyroTuner said:
I've found the same thing. Early 70s solid state gear, made in Japan, typically in the 20 to 50 wpc range, is hard to beat for sound quality.

Some examples are Sansui AU-777, Marantz 1060/2230, Sony TA-1130, Kenwood KA-6000, are just a few of many examples. Terrific build quality. Also, great price performance ratio when compared to monster receivers and tube amps.
Click to expand...

Yes, all good examples. I have a Sony TA-1150 (recapped and serviced) as my daily runner and I'm loving the sound of this amp.

Cheers,

Snade
 
Many of the lower wattage receivers of the early 70's were cap coupled. Based on my own experience they just had a more lush, almost tube like quality. Low watt Marantz such as the 2220, Pioneer SX-626, Harman Kardon 330B come to mind as I have owned all 3 and all were very close sonically and all are cap coupled. I'm not technical, so don't ask me what cap coupled means. I just know from reading this is the case. As solid state advancements were made, IMO the sound was sometimes more clinical and defined but not always better. We each have our preferences. For me, the Pioneer gear of the early 70's was and is my preference.
 
Basically, cap coupled means the amplifier has a low frequency cut off. Capacitors in an amplifier block DC and have a low frequency limit for AC(audio). Amplifiers without capacitor coupling have a theoretical response from DC up.
 
Many of the less expensive lower priced offerings form companies like Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, etc., used the same quality parts and construction as the more expensive units in the 70's. Sure the amplifier design could be simpler than the bigger units and with less features, but they still sounded good.
Sometimes thats a good thing. Less circuitry due to less features and fewer buttons and switches to go bad over time. A lot of the so called midfi stuff seems to age pretty well over time. One of my favorite integrated amplifiers is 30wpc and cap coupled. And Its the second from the bottom for that line of equipment. It sounds really good. Even the phono stage is nice.
 
Late 60's/early 70's gear was voiced like the tube equipment immediately preceding it. I think quality sound was the prime goal, not low distortion or huge watts. I've experienced the same kind of thing you have--maybe it's our ears, too--some people respond better to cap-coupled sound than others. I've had some very high end gear from the late 80's and while it would play very loud and clean, it doesn't have the magic my older receivers and amps have.
 
They perform well enough and do the intended job. If the music is not very taxing and the speakers are very sensitive the little 70's receivers will sound warm and relatively satisfyingly without turning to mush.
But loud enough and dynamic isn't part of the program.
If the speakers suck a lot of power and are demanding and capable of really bringing it, forget about it.
I like the 65 to 80 receivers, just not the 15 watt ones.
 
birchoak said:
Late 60's/early 70's gear was voiced like the tube equipment immediately preceding it. I think quality sound was the prime goal, not low distortion or huge watts. I've experienced the same kind of thing you have--maybe it's our ears, too--some people respond better to cap-coupled sound than others. I've had some very high end gear from the late 80's and while it would play very loud and clean, it doesn't have the magic my older receivers and amps have.
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Some of my favorite preamps and amps are from the early 70's. Like '70 to '73. Several of the manufacturers wouldn't switch to transistors until they became better and the equipment could be made to sound like tube equipment. If I remember right, McIntosh hung onto tubes longer than most before trying transistors.
 
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