Why we need tone controls and/or equalizers

[JonL]

I'm pretty sure some of the old Yamaha gear has automatically proportional loudness. I believe my CR 810 (I think it was an 810) did. The higher you roll the volume up, the less loudness is applied.

Some Denon gear, too. I had a DRA-425 receiver pass through here on its way to my girlfriend's house that had that type of loudness control. Poorly implemented, IMO, because the "Volume" control was the large, dominant knob, while the "Loudness" control was a small, secondary knob. The instructions for using the loudness function was to put the Loudness full up, set the volume control to the maximum listening level, and then use the "Loudness" knob to adjust the listening level to suit. IMO the Loudness knob should've been the larger one, or at least the same size. I'm sure my GF only uses the volume control and ignores the loudness control.

 

[uxwbill]

When I was newer to AK, I went into this discussion headfirst, being adamantly for tone controls. I still am. A worn tape, excessively crackly album, harshly toned CD, a radio broadcast that's poorly engineered or walking the line on reception quality...all of these things can benefit from a little tweaking at times. I don't use tone controls or loudness a lot, but I do use them.

After that discussion and spending a little more time around here, I came to realize that what others said was true. Set your system up how you want it. Experiment with different pieces. Chances are you'll find things you like about each one.

In the end, it only matters how the system sounds to you. Evangelize if you want, but don't troll.

Enjoying audio doesn't have to mean owning the best equipment there is. Lots and lots of people are out there who are thrilled simply to have their old department store turntable and speakers still playing away. I can see and appreciate both ends of the spectrum, except for the "cables people".

 

[AnalogDigit]

It is YOUR system. Set it up the way you want to listen to it. You are the only one that has to like your system.

 

[dumptruckz36]

some people said they want their music to sound like "how the musicians made it". why do we care what it was made to sound like? most of those people are old and gray or even dead. i think they would be happier if they knew we were enjoying it, not that we were fussing around trying to make it sound exactly like it was made. and heres a thought. if music should sound exactly like it was made, then why is audio equipment built with tone controls?

 

[gvalent]

I’ve never been an adherent of the “sound like how the musicians made it" philosophy.
One of several reasons being that it is impossible to even know what that sound is.

Let’s face it; the only way to really achieve this would be to have had the mixing and mastering done with your speakers and in your listening room.

 

[kirk57]

I’ve never been an adherent of the “sound like how the musicians made it" philosophy.
One of several reasons being that it is impossible to even know what that sound is.

Let’s face it; the only way to really achieve this would be to have had the mixing and mastering done with your speakers and in your listening room.

I disagree. The sound of unamplified instruments in a real space is a realistic goal for sound reproduction.

Best examples of this being jazz combos using acoustic instruments, string quartets, and ultimately a symphony orchestra (not that I'm likely to ever hear a system correctly reproduce an orchestra)

 

[JonL]

To me it isn't so much about slavishly recreating exactly the sound of the original musicians in the original space, rather it is about creating a sound that allows me to buy into the illusion of reality. I want to be able to close my eyes and be transported to a venue with real musicians spread out before me where I can hear what each one is playing/singing distinctly and even "watch" them performing. I have no idea if the sound I am hearing is an accurate replication of the original, but I do want it to sound as if it could very well be the sound of live musicians. I get that with many recordings on my current system (without tone controls BTW). Of course there are many genres and individual recordings where this is not a realistic goal, but for most of what I listen to I can sit in the sweet spot and experience a sound that is very lifelike.

 

[Brett a]

I’ve never been an adherent of the “sound like how the musicians made it" philosophy.
One of several reasons being that it is impossible to even know what that sound is.

I agree. And I think most musicians don't even know what they even sounded like in the studio themselves. not all session musicians stick around, or even have the opportunity to hear the tracks they've laid down in the context of the piece.

That's why i agree with JonL's last post; it's not about recreating anyling live for the most part, any more than watching television is going to make a new Yorker think they're in Wyoming when they watch old westerns.

 

[Fred Sanford]

To me it isn't so much about slavishly recreating exactly the sound of the original musicians in the original space, rather it is about creating a sound that allows me to buy into the illusion of reality. I want to be able to close my eyes and be transported to a venue with real musicians spread out before me where I can hear what each one is playing/singing distinctly and even "watch" them performing. I have no idea if the sound I am hearing is an accurate replication of the original, but I do want it to sound as if it could very well be the sound of live musicians. I get that with many recordings on my current system (without tone controls BTW). Of course there are many genres and individual recordings where this is not a realistic goal, but for most of what I listen to I can sit in the sweet spot and experience a sound that is very lifelike.

:thmbsp:

je

 

[SWL3600]

I disagree. The sound of unamplified instruments in a real space is a realistic goal for sound reproduction.

Best examples of this being jazz combos using acoustic instruments, string quartets, and ultimately a symphony orchestra (not that I'm likely to ever hear a system correctly reproduce an orchestra)

String instruments, acoustic instruments is one thing but what about an amplified distorted electric guitar.....an amplified kick drum.....they're distorted and out of control (and I dig it) so they're has to be a way to control it in your living room.

String-acoustic instruments are easy to play flat......electric guitars and kick drums are a challenge. If it means adding distortion to what is already distorted to make it sound right then tone controls, eq's, subwoofers etc. are neccessary in my book.

If all I listened to was smooth jazz this hobby would be a lot easier.

 

[gvalent]

I disagree. The sound of unamplified instruments in a real space is a realistic goal for sound reproduction.

Best examples of this being jazz combos using acoustic instruments, string quartets, and ultimately a symphony orchestra (not that I'm likely to ever hear a system correctly reproduce an orchestra)

Excellent point. Your examples would be the closest for true in home sound recreation of the musicians due to the instruments involved as well as, hopefully, a no compromise production process.

 

[myu701]

I think John has something here. It seems to me, from reading all these posts...MOST people move away from the controls, instead of towards them, as they (I hate to say this) mature in their listening enjoyment, whether it be from upgrading equipment or not. Maybe I am not still totally immature, in that I quit using equalizers years ago, just depending on the standard tone controls on my integrated amp.

My problem is...I like High highs, and Low lows....so if I have to get my fix artificially....so be it.

I've also seen plenty of posts from people saying they have no tone controls but used to, versus the other way around.

But what I'm most curious about is the claim from a number of people that tone controls in the signal path will affect your sound. Doesn't this depend upon the quality of the equipment? True, that at a microscopic level there must be some difference, but the key is whether or not it can be perceived. Much like an excellent recording converted to 320kbps and 224kbps... a majority of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference?

I must say that I've also found that owning speakers means getting to know them, and that it takes time to appreciate their characteristics. A set of speakers I thought were on the bright side in the first month of ownership turned out to be less bright than I thought they were later on. What helped was A/B'ing them with other speakers.

In several pieces of amplification gear I own, there is a tone bypass switch (or at least with CD, a direct switch). When neutralizing the tonal controls and then switching between bypass and on, I couldn't tell the difference. I tried this with a number of songs. Now, I don't know if it's just a matter of that gear having good enough circuitry to not introduce any noticeable degradation to the signal, or if it's just my ears.

 

[diamondsouled]

Computer based professional Loudspeaker Management systems can adjust eq automatically, or manually if you prefer.

Maybe we all need loud speaker management, maybe not

Cheers

Lar

 

[Zygmo]

Lar....THAT is an awesome Avatar!! :thmbsp:

I have come to a (pseudo-scientific) conclusion. I think, as a whole, you can determine whether a person likes to use tone controls or not by the type of music he/she likes:

Rock Music fans: For tone controls.
Country Music fans: Not sure, but probably mostly For tone controls.
All Other Forms Of Music (AOFO?) fans: Against (or at least minimalist) tone controls.

Disclaimer: Of course, there ARE always exceptions!

 

[SWL3600]

Zygmo.....I think you're on to something. :yes:

 

[JonL]

Regarding several posts that have drawn a distinction between recordings of acoustic instruments (can be played flat) and loud, distorted rock and roll (needs eq help), I disagree with that generality. Sure, on some systems that may be the result. I tend to listen to less heavily distorted music than cleaner, more acoustic oriented stuff, but I do still listen to plenty of rock. When I put on London Calling by The Clash, or the first Pretenders album, I'm blown away by the sonics. No need for eq. There's a live Delaney and Bonnie LP (On Tour?)... not a great recording, but when I play it loud it sounds just like I'm sitting a third of the way back in some big hockey rink listening to a loud, period-correct rock concert PA. It makes me feel like I'm there.

 

[SWL3600]

"but when I play it loud it sounds just like I'm sitting a third of the way back in some big hockey rink listening to a loud, period-correct rock concert PA. It makes me feel like I'm there."


LaScala's have that capability...don't they! :thmbsp:

 

[JonL]

"but when I play it loud it sounds just like I'm sitting a third of the way back in some big hockey rink listening to a loud, period-correct rock concert PA. It makes me feel like I'm there."


LaScala's have that capability...don't they! :thmbsp:

Yes, that they do... but I do most of my listening at super quiet levels, sitting about five feet from the speakers. Amazingly enough they are just as beautiful down there as they are up at performance-like SPLs. (I'm listening to the Neville Brothers real quiet right now, and my head's a'boppin to the funky beats!)

 

[JohnVF]

Lar....THAT is an awesome Avatar!! :thmbsp:

I have come to a (pseudo-scientific) conclusion. I think, as a whole, you can determine whether a person likes to use tone controls or not by the type of music he/she likes:

Rock Music fans: For tone controls.
Country Music fans: Not sure, but probably mostly For tone controls.
All Other Forms Of Music (AOFO?) fans: Against (or at least minimalist) tone controls.

Disclaimer: Of course, there ARE always exceptions!

I like all kinds of music but most of what I listen to is not acoustic. Everything from 50's garage to punk to classical and folk. And I really don't like tone controls being in my system.

 

[Zygmo]

Please take note of the disclaimer, guys.
I like all types of music also, but am mainly a rock fan.

JonL and SWL3600...sometimes I think LaScalas out horn my Corner Horns! :thmbsp: