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Will cost-effective DACs / digital kill boutique HiFi

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DavidTT

Super Member
I'll start with my answer, which is we can only hope.

I've been spending a lot of time in recent weeks on AudioScienceReview. It has proven a breath of fresh air for me. I've been wallowing for years in the subjective aspects of phono, engaged in a never-ending quest for the 'better' cartridge, better stylus for that cartridge, better turntable, but wait, if I only had a more 'musical' phono pre, or is it the amp? Like many other hobbyists, I have engaged in endless discussions of 'tone', 'warmth', 'soundstage', MM vs MC, the 'musicality' of this phono preamp vs another, 'air', 'shimmer', you know the drill.

I have had enough of that quest, one which I now realize decreased my actual enjoyment of listening to music, and one which also depleted my pocketbook, with no end in sight. In terms of this being a hobby, I can easily afford the audio game, but using music to listen to my gear is the opposite of what I want from this. Thus, the notion of buying a good quality DAC, for not a ton, and streaming high quality music, and listening to that music, just listening to that music, that holds great appeal for me.

Regarding the title of the thread, it is plain to see that many of the highest-performing DACs are ChiFi, made my SMSL, Topping, Khadas, Loxjie and a few others, and sell for $250 or less. Schiit is in the mix (Go USA!), although they take a lot of Schiit from the objectivists for their test performance, aside from their latest efforts, notably the Modi 3 that sells for only $99. It is worth noting that they purchased appropriate test equipment, only after being pressured to do so by the objectivists, and are now designing gear to meet best specs. Good for them and I'll note that I own a Modi 3 that I like a lot, purchased in part because of its performance measurements and value, confirmed by ASR.

Beyond high quality ChiFi DACs, anyone paying attention has seen (and/or heard) the proliferation of good-performing small amplifiers coming from Asia, making it seem clear that expensive boutique manufacturing is set for decline as digital continues to improve, proliferate and dominate.

Here's hoping that younger generations of buyers will not only insist on knowing actual performance specs of their audio products, but that they will eschew the goofball aspects that have been embraced by the boutique crowd and have infected the hobby; the ridiculous cables, the massive and heavy enclosures and boxes, the toxic pricing, the embrace of nebulous, impossible-to-define terminology, etc.
 
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Better sound, improvements and better value is good for audio. It's greed, stubbornness against innovation (but go ahead and triple the price), audiophiles and the masses accepting MP3 as good enough that will kill audio in my estimation.

As an old geezer. Yes bring on innovation that provides a better product at a lower price than last decade. May those who do not innovate but continually jack the prices die. They will be replaced but not missed.
 
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I don't pay attention to any review that ASR publishes. They don't seem to actually listen to anything. ASR is only concerned with specs and distortion levels that no one can hear. I'm not against specs. However, IMO no one can adequately review any gear without listening to it. Specs alone do not tell the entire story.
 
Perhaps you misunderstand the point of ASR reviews then. The point is that they validate performance of the gear tested. They have done a wonderful service, which is to test for potentially audible flaws in equipment, and confirm design and engineering competence. I have been surprised how many times ASR has demonstrated really rotten performance by very expensive pieces of equipment, along with separating the wheat from chaff among low priced gear.

It is also made clear there that many of the ratings, among them DAC SINAD, are useful for validation, but that the listener is unlikely to hear a difference in, for example, a DAC that scores 109 versus another scoring 112. As a tool to validate that the gear I buy is competent, well engineered and priced appropriately among its competition, ASR is hugely helpful IMO. Why spend $2000 for a DAC that is no more capable than one that costs $500? The removal of boutique 'magic' is a great thing for the hobby at large.

Where I agree with you is that it's up to me as the consumer to choose which gear I buy and enjoy. But, to know that gear is well made and competent, that is a service that nobody out there provides anymore among the 'audiophile' industry. If manufacturers published legit specs, and if reviewers did their jobs, there would be no need for ASR. Wouldn't that be nice?


JoeESP9 said:
I don't pay attention to any review that ASR publishes. They don't seem to actually listen to anything. ASR is only concerned with specs and distortion levels that no one can hear. I'm not against specs. However, IMO no one can adequately review any gear without listening to it. Specs alone do not tell the entire story.
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So basically if it measures better it must sound better. Bullocks.

I got sucked into their cult for a small bit and owned 3 of their top rated dacs and much prefer ones they don’t like. They loathe MB/R2R but I always go back to them cause they sound better to me.

I’ll just leave it at that since I don’t have much anything good to say. Like you I rather just enjoy my music and it sound good vs just testing my equipment without listening.
 
You've put your faith into someone that has proven to not know how to correctly and reliably use the test equipment you're now banking on his knowledge of with your money. (Other more profession tests get different results)

He proudly says he doesn't want to confuse himself with listening, only go by the numbers he takes.

This kind of misguided behavior is why he has failed spectacularly at so many endeavours. Following a pied piper is not a mission that leads to good places.

Remember, measurements are to reveal what's wrong, listening is to establish what's right.

EV3
 
JoeESP9 said:
They don't seem to actually listen to anything.
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Personal listening recommendations are largely pointless, as it's accepted that we each have a preferred 'sound'. They are subjective.

The point of ASR is to provide objective measurments, leaving subjective choices to the individual. Preferably, those choices should be made using blind, level-matched AB tests. Otherwise, the myriad of psychological biases start to kick in.

The other point of ASR is that 'professional' reviewers these days appear to be nothing more than shills for their advertisers.

I have some qualms about ASR, but, on the whole, I prefer the approach taken to the subjective nonsense spouted by much of the audiophool industry.
 
Will cost effective DAC's kill boutique HIFI? No, I doubt it. "Boutique" implies the fringe element of our hobby. Many of which haven't hitched their "our"wagon to digital wholeheartedly. Vinyl to us is still the path to the best sound. Yes, its way more involving and costly than just plugging in a dac, but that's what's enjoyable about it to some of us. Trying new carts, phono amps, scoring a great album. To me its the tactile aspect of playing a record that gets me really involved in the playing of music. I enjoy having to work a little to hear some great music.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy digital too, but find it a little to uninvolving.JMO.
 
Cost effective Chinese dacs will mainly improve the Chinese market share. Which is the whole point of the venture, I would imagine. Not to mention that a lot of people really want to 'believe' that their cheap components are just as good as the more expensive models. Which is a fallacy.
 
cpt_paranoia said:
I think there's a pretty strong fallacy that 'more expensive = better'.

Competent engineering isn't very expensive. Boutique baubles are.
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I wouldn't suggest that more expensive necessarily = better. But most of the time, yes. Especially with Dacs. There's nothing wrong with being happy with less expensive gear of course and how much is too much is relative.
 
DavidTT said:
Perhaps you misunderstand the point of ASR reviews then. The point is that they validate performance of the gear tested.
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I don't buy the notion that the sum total performance of a DAC is how it plays into an AP. That's akin to saying the performance of a car is summed up in how it does on the rolling road. To me, the performance that matters is the satisfaction it brings in delivering music to my ears. That's in-system performance.
 
I like ASR - that site will eventually displace this one if it can stay focused on reviewing products that are relevant. Some of the review selections made are just whatever is available or offered up by members to find out what they bought, kind of a hodge podge. The site has a chip on it's shoulder about high end for sure and holding new manufacturers accountable to the specs (or lack thereof) they publish. I don't think it's measurements are all that matters to ASR, I think it's more there are no standards these days on what measurements mean, so anybody can claim whatever they want with out doing the work to prove it when designing products.

And yes - ChiFi Dacs are some of the best. How long they will last is a different question.
 
xdd said:
I don't buy the notion that the sum total performance of a DAC is how it plays into an AP. That's akin to saying the performance of a car is summed up in how it does on the rolling road. To me, the performance that matters is the satisfaction it brings in delivering music to my ears. That's in-system performance.
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As someone who used to take part heavily in the SCCA culture. This is a horrible analogy. Automobile performance is more heavily influenced by operator skill than any other factor despite what it's measured performance is. There's no human element significantly affecting how much of a DAC's performance is accessible.
 
No, not even listening training. Long term in situ 'testing' is one of the biggest fallacies in audio. Testing for validated performance, testing listeners regarding their ability to distinguish differences via double blind and valid testing protocols, these are the things that ASR advocates for, things that are utterly absent in the rest of audiophilia.

That lacking is how we've found ourselves discussing things like cables for God's sake. Cables. The reasonable hobbyist ought to read even one thread about the magical powers of big, fat, expensive cables and ask 'how did we get here'? That lack of critical analysis and healthy skepticism has made a mockery of the hobby for its consumers, while providing a Barnum's field day for unscrupulous manufacturers and their shills.


xdd said:
Not even listening skills training?
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DavidTT said:
That lacking is how we've found ourselves discussing things like cables for God's sake. Cables. The reasonable hobbyist ought to read even one thread about the magical powers of big, fat, expensive cables and ask 'how did we get here'?
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If the powers of cables seem magical to you, may I suggest further study? As Arthur C. Clarke said 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'.
 
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