Worth investing in Shure carts and stylii, yet?

[p.robustini]

Hi guys!
I have been running my Thorens TD-160 with a Grado Prestige Gold and a Signature 8MX with a Gold1 stylus and then an 8MZ and i was really pretty happy with everything.
Until I damaged both stylii (incredible uh?!)...
At the same time someone was trashing a cheap old turntable I can't remember the brand of, but it had a Shure Me97HE cartridge with a broken stylus.
I kept the body of course. I tried to sell it even at ridiculous prices, then I decided to find a cheap needle just to give it a try.
I've read a lot on this forum about the history and features of this cartridge. I gather it is a made in Mexico 80s reissue of the M97 of Shure's fourth era in the 70s. Quite a good cart since it is right below the venerable V15 of the same era.
I found a Nagaoka N97ED for 28 euros, an elliptic one rather than hyperelliptic, and I threw the bundle at the Thorens without even bothering much about a thorough alignment procedure...
But .....wow! I really like this Shure! That's what surprises me.
It must be said that for months I had to listen to my vinyl records with a badly performing, damaged Grado bundle. And actually never compared it to any other carts...

Probably since I resumed playing guitar in band I listen every week to the real instruments and the more neutral, somewhat crudest presentation of the Shure sounds more realistic to my re-trained hears. But even with jazz I am happy! Or maybe it's just the Nagaoka replacements are damn good!

OK, let's say that I discovered I prefer a more neutral presentation like Shure offered -
the thing is: now that Shure stopped producing cartridges and stylii, is it worth investing more on this cart? A good jico or sas hyperelliptic stylus would be great (resuming my Grado would be as expensive).
Someone suggested that probably I could like a more neutral cart like a new Audiotechnica andif I listened to one I wouldn't want the Grado anymore.
I'm curious and I might give the unexpensive VM95e a try. Audiotechnica is still there. Shure isn't, so in the long run it could be a better choice. Would it?

 

[olddude55]

Before you spend money on an SAS stylus, look at the AT VM540ML. I've got one, outstanding cartridge.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Only your ears can decide that for you.

 

[savatage1973]

None of the above or all of the above--it's all a matter of personal preference. I own all of the above-mentioned brands of carts--Grado Gold1, and Silver1, Shure M97Xe, AT 440 MLa, 440MLb and 150MLx amongst many other variants (body/styli combinations). NONE of them are truly "neutral". They (each brand) has their own "house sound". I am a big fan of the Audio Technica carts because of the detail that they present in the upper registers, but many consider them "bright". The Shure is definitely "warmer", but I feel it lacks the detail that I get with the AT carts. Grado is just Grado--they sound like a Grado. They don't do anything "wrong", but they don't do anything spectacularly "right", either--at least for me. I have no love for any Ortofon cart that I have ever encountered (and I've had a few)--they go away when I sell or gift away a table.

All of the specifically mentioned carts have stock styli, and I have spares, so I haven't tried any of the aftermarket replacement styli on them--YET. I have read here and several other places that the JICO styli for the Shures are great, but I don't know if I'd jump at a SAS at its current pricing, which is basically twice what I paid the cart/stylus brand new (before the price jumped).

AT is definitely staying in the game, as is Grado. But the fact that Shure has gotten out of the cart/stylus business doesn't scare me either. There were always tons of aftermarket styli for Shure carts available, and the lack of OEM styli is just further fueling that market.

Just as a point of reference, the above-mentioned carts are used on a couple Dual CS5000 decks with the factory headshells with the VTA adjustment on the headshell. My main table is a Linn LP12 w/Ittok arm, and I use a Dynavector 23K RS cart on it--I have a seconid Dynavector being re-tipped by SoundSmith right now, and a brand new (well "almost"--I put a few hours on it) Sumiko BlackBird sitting here as well.

All I can definitively tell you, is listen and go with what YOU like.

 

[Grenadeslio]

None of the above or all of the above--it's all a matter of personal preference. I own all of the above-mentioned brands of carts--Grado Gold1, and Silver1, Shure M97Xe, AT 440 MLa, 440MLb and 150MLx amongst many other variants (body/styli combinations). NONE of them are truly "neutral". They (each brand) has their own "house sound". I am a big fan of the Audio Technica carts because of the detail that they present in the upper registers, but many consider them "bright". The Shure is definitely "warmer", but I feel it lacks the detail that I get with the AT carts. Grado is just Grado--they sound like a Grado. They don't do anything "wrong", but they don't do anything spectacularly "right", either--at least for me. I have no love for any Ortofon cart that I have ever encountered (and I've had a few)--they go away when I sell or gift away a table.

All of the specifically mentioned carts have stock styli, and I have spares, so I haven't tried any of the aftermarket replacement styli on them--YET. I have read here and several other places that the JICO styli for the Shures are great, but I don't know if I'd jump at a SAS at its current pricing, which is basically twice what I paid the cart/stylus brand new (before the price jumped).

AT is definitely staying in the game, as is Grado. But the fact that Shure has gotten out of the cart/stylus business doesn't scare me either. There were always tons of aftermarket styli for Shure carts available, and the lack of OEM styli is just further fueling that market.

Just as a point of reference, the above-mentioned carts are used on a couple Dual CS5000 decks with the factory headshells with the VTA adjustment on the headshell. My main table is a Linn LP12 w/Ittok arm, and I use a Dynavector 23K RS cart on it--I have a seconid Dynavector being re-tipped by SoundSmith right now, and a brand new (well "almost"--I put a few hours on it) Sumiko BlackBird sitting here as well.

All I can definitively tell you, is listen and go with what YOU like.

Wait, so when you sell or gift someone a table you purposely install a cartridge you don't like? Nice guy lol.

Just busting your chops, just found the statement funny is all lol.

 

[savatage1973]

Wait, so when you gift someone a table you purposely install a cartridge you don't like? Nice guy lol.

Just busting your chops, just found the statement funny is all lol.

Lots of people love Ortofon carts--I am just not a fan. But at least when I sell or gift away a table it has a "decent" cart on it and it is properly aligned and ready to go. If I don't have a "spare" cart lying around to put on a table, my "go-to" is the AT95--decent all on its own, and easily upgraded with different styli. But you also have to realize that pretty much all the tables that I give away or sell (on the cheap) are "starter" tables--not like I have a pile of LP12's or SL1200's stacked in the shop. LOL

 

[p.robustini]

Thanks guys!
Of course my hears should decide.
I was mostly concerned about Shure out of this business and therefore whether spending mint on it.
I am intrigued by Audiotechnica. I wonder if a VM95e could be enough to start probing the house sound. I can't afford a higher specs AT right now, let alone Jico or SAS.
Grado replacement stylii prices have also jumped.
I could try to get the 8MZ fixed for the same omount if money I could get a VM95e for.
I don't know as of now if I could find better stylii for the Me97 at those price tags.
Anyway I figure I'll end up myself with different cartridges for different purposes.... ;-)

 

[olddude55]

Thanks guys!
Of course my hears should decide.
I was mostly concerned about Shure out of this business and therefore whether spending mint on it.
I am intrigued by Audiotechnica. I wonder if a VM95e could be enough to start probing the house sound. I can't afford a higher specs AT right now, let alone Jico or SAS.
Grado replacement stylii prices have also jumped.
I could try to get the 8MZ fixed for the same omount if money I could get a VM95e for.
I don't know as of now if I could find better stylii for the Me97 at those price tags.
Anyway I figure I'll end up myself with different cartridges for different purposes.... ;-)

If you get the VM95e, you can always upgrade the stylus later. All of the VM95 cartridges are the same, only the stylus shapes get more sophisticated as you move up the food chain.
So there's that.

 

[p.robustini]

If you get the VM95e, you can always upgrade the stylus later. All of the VM95 cartridges are the same, only the stylus shapes get more sophisticated as you move up the food chain.
So there's that.

That's exactly what I was thinking about Audiotechnica, versus Shure disappearing.... ;-)
In fact the main purpose of my thread is publicizing various points of view about investing on Shure now, given the fact they are non longer in this market:
Good value in the future just because they are no longer produced?
Or better look to other places in order to have support, replacements, etc.... especially if one has just one cart like me...
Do carts live forever? ;-)

 

[tw1st]

I have almost exclusively Shure cartridges, all of which were purchased post-2016. At the time, Shure was only still making the M97xE though as you know that is now discontinued as well.

Genuine NOS Shure styli are of course becoming increasingly scarce, and as a result, expensive. However, you’ve seen that even with an inexpensive aftermarket stylus, it produces a pleasing sound to you. There are no signs that the aftermarket stylus manufacturers are going to cease production of Shure replacements, and with many people still using their cartridges I doubt this will happen in the near future.

The Me97 cartridge is quite capable, and a 70s M97 was my first Shure cartridge (I now have 4).

In short: don’t worry, enjoy it!

 

[Trekkie4]

That's exactly what I was thinking about Audiotechnica, versus Shure disappearing.... ;-)
In fact the main purpose of my thread is publicizing various points of view about investing on Shure now, given the fact they are non longer in this market:
Good value in the future just because they are no longer produced?
Or better look to other places in order to have support, replacements, etc.... especially if one has just one cart like me...
Do carts live forever? ;-)

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that Shure is disappearing. True, they're no longer in production and/or supported by Shure company, but then again most of their successful old school models hadn't been supported for ages, even when Shure was still in production of phono carts.

No, I would have to agree with @savatage1973 - there's no wrong or right choice with this one, it all comes down to whenever you like Shure or not. Personally, I'm quite impressed with my aftermarket N 75ED/Type2, which gives a LOT of bang for the buck. Sounds & looks like a high end cart, for the price of $50 or less!

 

[savatage1973]

I could try to get the 8MZ fixed for the same omount if money I could get a VM95e for.
I don't know as of now if I could find better stylii for the Me97 at those price tags.

This may seem a little "weird" or even a bit insane, but if you only have a few bucks to spend, I'd go with the AT. You may or may not like it, but you will know what "flavor" of cart you like. It is all a matter of personal preference. Each manufacturer has a "house sound", so pick one and run with it--it is all up to YOU--just like picking a pair of speakers that work for you--only time will tell.

 

[jrtrent]

I'm in favor of trying out different things so you can hear first hand what you do and don't like. Especially when I was new in the hobby, I bought a different cartridge every time the stylus wore out just so I could experience what was out there. Almost every time, even if I knew I didn't like what I bought quite as much as some others, I could still enjoy music. Two of the cartridges I couldn't stand to leave on, though, were AT models (AT95E and AT440ML), which were just too bright for me to tolerate (though I did use each for at least a couple of months before moving on). Interestingly enough, one of AT's cheapest models, the CN5625AL, sounded much better balanced to me, and I enjoyed it on several different turntables (LP12, Well Tempered, Rega). I should add, however, that my older brother loved the AT95E, and I don't think his son has ever used anything else. Different ears, different tastes.

As to Shure, I've loved the M97xE on my Rega RP3 and have used it exclusively these past 4 years or so. Shure claims that their bodies have no parts to wear out and that a new stylus assembly returns it to like new condition; your Me97HE will likely be fine for as long as you can keep buying new styli that you like. The problem for me is that every user report I've read about after-market styli for the M97xE reports that these styli sound brighter than the original--welcomed by most people, but I love the Shure for its warm sound and reduced treble response.

 

[johnjhazel]

I have almost exclusively Shure cartridges, all of which were purchased post-2016. At the time, Shure was only still making the M97xE though as you know that is now discontinued as well.

Genuine NOS Shure styli are of course becoming increasingly scarce, and as a result, expensive. However, you’ve seen that even with an inexpensive aftermarket stylus, it produces a pleasing sound to you. There are no signs that the aftermarket stylus manufacturers are going to cease production of Shure replacements, and with many people still using their cartridges I doubt this will happen in the near future.

The Me97 cartridge is quite capable, and a 70s M97 was my first Shure cartridge (I now have 4).

In short: don’t worry, enjoy it!

Shure cartridges are the bread and butter for the aftermarket styli industry. They will not stop manufacturing and selling them unless demand drops greatly(unlikely) or they just want to go out of business. Some stereo dealers have boxes full of used Shures. Check yours out. And buy a new cheap or expensive stylus for it.

 

[bimasta]

@jrtrent "I love the Shure for its warm sound and reduced treble response."

Do you mean literally: "reduced treble response"? As in, "rolled off."

Shure promoted itself for totally accurate frequency response.

I have a V15-IVHE and V15-VMR. I never use them. Compared to my other carts, a mix of brands and types, they are the dullest and least engaging — and their lack of "life" in the treble is the problem for me.

Maybe I don't like accuracy.

 

[jrtrent]

@jrtrent "I love the Shure for its warm sound and reduced treble response."

Do you mean literally: "reduced treble response"? As in, "rolled off."

Below is a quote from and link to TNT Audio's review of the M97xE. If you take a look at the frequency response graph, I think "rolled off" isn't too far off the mark. Picking out just the positive comments from the TNT Audio review of the M97xE, we read:

"As can be gleaned from the frequency response plots the tonal balance darkens progressively towards the treble, a bit like a classic Quad preamp with the 'tilt' control down all three notches and a mite of bass boost. . . The upper bass is full and round, conspicuously present yet tuneful and bouncy. The midrange and treble areas lack some air and definition, but the '97 somehow avoids sounding dull and boring. If anything, the music bursts forth with quite some enthusiasm . . . The treble, while subdued, is quite pure, undistorted, and unstressed. Sibilance is handled well, troublesome 'S'es being reduced to a soft (dutch) 'ch'. This surely is a friendly-sounding cartridge!" https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shure_m97xe_e.html

Shure had said that the "x" versions (both the M97xE and the V15VxMR) were created with a deliberately "softened" high end due to remarks from influential critics about a harsh high end with the original V15V-MR.

 

[Balifly]

Below is a quote from and link to TNT Audio's review of the M97xE. If you take a look at the frequency response graph, I think "rolled off" isn't too far off the mark. Picking out just the positive comments from the TNT Audio review of the M97xE, we read:

"As can be gleaned from the frequency response plots the tonal balance darkens progressively towards the treble, a bit like a classic Quad preamp with the 'tilt' control down all three notches and a mite of bass boost. . . The upper bass is full and round, conspicuously present yet tuneful and bouncy. The midrange and treble areas lack some air and definition, but the '97 somehow avoids sounding dull and boring. If anything, the music bursts forth with quite some enthusiasm . . . The treble, while subdued, is quite pure, undistorted, and unstressed. Sibilance is handled well, troublesome 'S'es being reduced to a soft (dutch) 'ch'. This surely is a friendly-sounding cartridge!" https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shure_m97xe_e.html

Shure had said that the "x" versions (both the M97xE and the V15VxMR) were created with a deliberately "softened" high end due to remarks from influential critics about a harsh high end with the original V15V-MR.

The Zirconia cantilver Shibata stylus should work well on the V15V-MR then, may tame the high.

 

[johnjhazel]

@jrtrent "I love the Shure for its warm sound and reduced treble response."

Do you mean literally: "reduced treble response"? As in, "rolled off."

Shure promoted itself for totally accurate frequency response.

I have a V15-IVHE and V15-VMR. I never use them. Compared to my other carts, a mix of brands and types, they are the dullest and least engaging — and their lack of "life" in the treble is the problem for me.

Maybe I don't like accuracy.

They are not my favorites either.

 

[91r100gs]

A Shure M91 with a nice hyper elliptical has been a wonderful match on my Dual 1219. The one on my 1219 is from TurntableNeedles. There are many Shure cartridges that match beautifully with Jico, Vividline, and Bliss styli. Great reviews all over the place.

FWIW I also have a $1100 Audio Technica. Love it also. Different table, different system different needs.

 

[ETI_5000]

Shure Ultra 500 Frequency response below. Flat enough for you across the audio range?



Incidentally, the rise at the top end is for the stylus tip resonance, and because it's well above the audio band (~29kHz) due to its low stylus equivalent mass, that produces a very flat response within the audio range. Most lesser cartridges, such as the M91ED, have them within the audio band, in the case of the M91ED at about 16kHz, above which the response drops off.

The earlier M55E tip resonance was much lower due to its much heavier cantilever, at about 11kHz, and so the frequency response was rather lumpy as a result. See below for the M55E frequency response (tip equivalent mass 1.2mg, versus 0.165mg for the Ultra 500). It actually doesn't sound too bad - the best free cartridge I've ever had left in the street for me, complete with CEC-made turntable, which did need a belt, but luckily I had an unused one to suit it!



Shure M97xE frequency response below - rolled off above 2kHz. Uhrgh! No wonder it doesn't sound good....




Frankly, I don’t believe it about the V15VxMR – that the same cartridge body as the V15 Pro/V15-RS or VST-III, which had a very flat frequency response, would suddenly be worse when you improve the stylus tip and cantilever, seems rather unbelievable. I haven’t seen an objective review of the V15VxMR with frequency response measurements, but can’t believe that a cartridge with such a flat frequency response (VST-III) would suddenly have a rolled-off top end with a different (better) stylus.

However, the M97xE does have a rolled off top end from about 2kHz onwards, as can be sen above, and that’s very audible I can say, as the owner of one. In fact, it’s a disappointment when compared to an M75ED Type 2 or M91ED (of which I’ve owned several over the years), which were quite flat up to 16kHz, before rolling off, even if it does track much better.

I have to say that the V15 Type V-MR is the best of many MI and MM cartridges I've heard - it's just so accurate. Good thing I bought some spare styli for mine, before they stopped making them. I haven't heard an Ultra 500, though. The V15 Type V frequency response is below.