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Wow and flutter of belt vs direct drive turtables question

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twoengine

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I've noticed that people are very critical of wow and flutter measurements of direct drive turntables. People don't even seem to mention wow and flutter when it comes to belt-drive turntables. Wow and flutter is usually much lower on direct drive than belt drive turntables.

Therefore why is there this double standard?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Indeed it is a double standard and worthless to argue about anyway. The issue is not belt vs direct but high quality decks vs low quality. The wow coming from records not being perfect usually greatly exceeds that from any good quality turntable, whether belt or direct drive. Any good belt or direct drive turntable will have imperceptible wow, and once it's that good it is good enough.
 
It's a tradition to prefer belt driven, some people think the vibration from the TT motor is reduced due to the belt when the motor being attached to the frame is the source of vibration. Groups of people have always shared information that isn't true. An idler arm turntable is a better table than a belt table and it has more moving parts. But truthfully, the heavier the table, the less the vibration and that's why the Pioneeer PLX-1000 is best audiophile table under $2000 and the reviewers from Steve Gutenberg to Stereophile.com have been saying this over and over again. It's just that allot of people have to have things the way they see it and birds of a feather flock together. There will always be people that will say how can you compare that table to the illustrious favorite that has been lavished over for decades. It's what influences a person socially....
 
Where do you get this from? Ever tried a Lack table under just about any turntable? It's super lighweight, but, guess what, it's one of the best absorbers of vibration you can find. You also need to understand the interaction between the component parts of a turntable before you make these sweeping generalisations.
 
I don't understand why, but some people ignore actual performance testing.
Perhaps they are unable to articulate some valid issues, but the scientific method suggest we test things and try to understand the differences.
 
With the arrival of the Brinkmann Bardo, and the VPI Classic Direct, smart folks question the traditional "wisdom".

Hi-fi DDs are now allowed in. Really smart folks extend this further down the price scale. :)
 
twoengine said:
I've noticed that people are very critical of wow and flutter measurements of direct drive turntables. People don't even seem to mention wow and flutter when it comes to belt-drive turntables. Wow and flutter is usually much lower on direct drive than belt drive turntables.

Therefore why is there this double standard?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

I have no idea, maybe human nature. We don´t want to hear that what we have maybe isn´t that good.
 
It's not a double standard. There are belt drive designs which perform very well, and there's plenty of better older belt drives which perform very well. It is the cheapie DC motored turntables like the Regas, ProJect budget models and the likes which get the criticism. VPI, Sota, Linn, Michell, Empire, and Thorens, to name some don't get wow and flutter criticism. It boils down to engineering and build quality. I praise well designed, well engineered turntables no matter the drive design, and own examples of all drive systems. For the last two weeks I have listened to belt drive exclusively too, my old Pioneer PL 12-D for the record. It has kept correct and accurate speed whether it be first or last record.
 
twoengine said:
I've noticed that people are very critical of wow and flutter measurements of direct drive turntables. People don't even seem to mention wow and flutter when it comes to belt-drive turntables. Wow and flutter is usually much lower on direct drive than belt drive turntables.

Therefore why is there this double standard?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
I think you have backwards
Cite articles which make this claim new one on me
ARTICLES based on objective measurements NOT forum chit chat!
I my self less worried over this than the very high number of off center pressings
JJ
 
grottyash said:
Where do you get this from? Ever tried a Lack table under just about any turntable? It's super lighweight, but, guess what, it's one of the best absorbers of vibration you can find. You also need to understand the interaction between the component parts of a turntable before you make these sweeping generalisations.
Click to expand...
I am not understanding what table has to do with wow flutter?
JJ
 
grottyash said:
Where do you get this from? Ever tried a Lack table under just about any turntable? It's super lighweight, but, guess what, it's one of the best absorbers of vibration you can find. You also need to understand the interaction between the component parts of a turntable before you make these sweeping generalisations.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was amazed at that. I have one of my tables upstairs on a rectangular Lack. You can dance right next to it. No skip. So funny.
 
The Lack table can't fix a poorly engineered drive system barely capable of driving the platter when new. Too many neo belt drive systems on the budget end and even some higher end examples suffer from this design mindset. The turntable can or it can't deliver the results. Like all else out there, there is sound engineering and build, good and bad. Get the fundamentals correct, and spend less time chasing upgrade after upgrade. Some designs leave too much on the budget end inadequate. Sometimes, buying better to begin with and spending less time upgrading lesser makes sense. Worth taking your time, hearing what is out there, demoing it at home, living with it. Just some common sense.
 
The quality of the belt can change W&F of my Thorens Td 125 MK II by over 300%. Most of the time after 50 hours the differences are between , 04 % and .08 %. But thats nothing like a great DD turntable with much lower W&F. .. A belt can also effect rumble figures. Empire TT with a cheap belt really compromises its performance.
 
How does one measure the wow and flutter on a belt drive without using a test album? How many DD tables are measured off a test album, and not motor electrical readings? Any two test albums punched the same exact way?. Ever notice they give no warp wow measurements?
 
You will get more wow from playing a record that was not punched in the exact center than you will from a direct drive turntable. Even if the record is punched in the exact center you have to make sure you've centered in on the platter as well. I use Technics direct drive turntables and I don't worry about wow or flutter from the turntable. It's just not audible. I am careful to center the record when it's playing because my wife is sensitive to the wow of a record being played slightly off center.
 
Wow ... flutter? Flutter ... wow!! Is that anything like Futterwacken? ;-}

It's been mentioned, but worth repeating. Quality is the difference. Maintaining quality maintains that difference. Improper maintenance and lower quality exact replacement parts can significantly impact that quality.
 
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