Your cart to TT cost ratio?

[markd51]

I use a cart that cost more that twice what my TT cost! I know you don't care but I just wanted to break the monotony of the responses.

I'm virtually in the same category as you, when you consider a New ZYX Airy 3X SB Cartridge now cost $3450. I probably have less than 1/2 that invested in my table, but other things, such as the VPI SDS Speed Controller, and Sutherland PhD Phono Stage (and good Cabling) have made my analog front end really shine. I sure love whipping out a 35 year old LP, and sitting there, jaw agape!

One of the biggest problems i see, is with proper turntable-tonearm-cartridge set up. A little off here, and a little off there accumilates, and adds up to a lackluster sound, whether it's a Shure M-97Xe Cartridge, or a Lyra Titan i Cartridge. Mark

 

[ZAZ13]

I'm virtually in the same category as you, when you consider a New ZYX Airy 3X SB Cartridge now cost $3450. I probably have less than 1/2 that invested in my table, but other things, such as the VPI SDS Speed Controller, and Sutherland PhD Phono Stage (and good Cabling) have made my analog front end really shine. I sure love whipping out a 35 year old LP, and sitting there, jaw agape!

One of the biggest problems i see, is with proper turntable-tonearm-cartridge set up. A little off here, and a little off there accumilates, and adds up to a lackluster sound, whether it's a Shure M-97Xe Cartridge, or a Lyra Titan i Cartridge. Mark

Not exactly what I was thinking of. I use a $50 AT on my $25 pioneer.

 

[markd51]

Not exactly what I was thinking of. I use a $50 AT on my $25 pioneer.

Buts that's quite all right ZaZ, and nobody shoud have any less respect of you, whether you're enjoying a $75 Rig, or a $75,000 one.

As always, the most important thing will always be, that you love listening to vinyl. And it is always indeed possible, that your love for vinyl is more genuine than the guy with the $75,000 rig. Usually, I think when one gets to that point of excellence, they're most likely looking for nothing but problems, and have a hard time then enjoying "the music". :yes: Mark

 

[goldwax]

TT, used vintage: $200
Cart, new: $100

Not sure how helpful this is...

 

[Balifly]

A dysfunctional $30.00 Pioneer PL-530 with a $39.00 stylus on a Mission 773MM cartridge.

 

[ZAZ13]

I can't see myself paying $75,000 for anything I cant live in or drive.

 

[virak]

My ratio is approx. 1:2, if I'm not factoring in the mods on the TT. I'm running an AT-OC9ML/II on a Technics SL-1210Mk2.

 

[spyderx]

The Michell is a really great deck ( I have one!). I know for a FACT you will get better sound quality with a better cart. But the Michell will make whatever you put on it sound great. So if you like the way it sounds, leave it be!

BTW, I have the Gyro SE II with the Tecnoarm A, I don't have the PSU. I do have the Orbe Clamp and the decoupling kit. The Orbe Clamp I HIGHLY recommend as an upgrade.

I run a Benz Ace S-Class HO. I like this cart a lot better than the Ortofon 2m Black I also have, which also sounded very good. But my setup tilts a little to the brighter side and the Benz really smoothed things out.

Bottom line: If you have a $90 cart, you will get better SQ if you upgrade. The limit? I don't know, but I think the $500 range you will hear a great improvement.

 

[elcoholic]

Dual CS 5000 w/ Ortophon MC3 Turbo. The TT was $500ish new in the 80s w/a $150 cart (Ortofon X3). Adjusting for inflation say $700 for TT and the new cart was $275 so its 2.5:1.

 

[jrtrent]

But the Michell will make whatever you put on it sound great. So if you like the way it sounds, leave it be!

I haven't heard the Michell, but that was the reason I bought an LP12 twenty-four years ago and why I'm impressed even with Well Tempered's entry level Record Player. Both get better sound from a sub-$100 cartridge than lesser decks I'e auditioned can manage even with expensive cartridges mounted. Until the turntable system has been optimized, putting on an expensive cartridge (that is, those that will run several hundred dollars per year in re-tip fees) just doesn't make sense in my financial position, though I realize that many aren't limited to a school-teacher budget.

For example, my LP12/Ittok gives sound I'm happy with with cartridges that use $30-70 replacement styli. If I want to step up the performance level, I'd save that $500 or so per year in re-tip fees for a while until I can afford a better power supply (Lingo or Radikal), tonearm (Ekos), or structural modification (Keel). To my ears, those types of improvements, even with the same $80 cartridge, give better sound than just putting on a more expensive cartridge.

 

[theophile]

I haven't heard the Michell, but that was the reason I bought an LP12 twenty-four years ago and why I'm impressed even with Well Tempered's entry level Record Player. Both get better sound from a sub-$100 cartridge than lesser decks I'e auditioned can manage even with expensive cartridges mounted. Until the turntable system has been optimized, putting on an expensive cartridge (that is, those that will run several hundred dollars per year in re-tip fees) just doesn't make sense in my financial position, though I realize that many aren't limited to a school-teacher budget.

For example, my LP12/Ittok gives sound I'm happy with with cartridges that use $30-70 replacement styli. If I want to step up the performance level, I'd save that $500 or so per year in re-tip fees for a while until I can afford a better power supply (Lingo or Radikal), tonearm (Ekos), or structural modification (Keel). To my ears, those types of improvements, even with the same $80 cartridge, give better sound than just putting on a more expensive cartridge.

That realisation can only come with the first-hand usage of a great turntable.Until a great turntable has crossed a person's path,the cartridge seems the tempting thing to upgrade.
My purchase of the GT 2000 came about directly because of a decision to upgrade the Dynavector Karat Diamond (Mk2)that I was using on my Yamaha PX-2.I had decided to purchase a ZYX cartridge which would have cost me the better part of $3000 Aussie dollars.It dawned upon me that for that outlay I could purchase a GT 2000(from Japan).I decided to go for the better turntable.

When the GT 2000 arrived I transferred the Dynavector over to the 2000 from the PX-2.To say I was stunned at the difference would be an understatement.It was immediately obvious,that as good as the PX-2 was,a more expensive cartridge than the Dynavector would have been for the most part a total waste of money.For one thing,it was blatantly revealed that I had only been hearing a fraction of what the Dynavector was capable of(on the PX-2).The only change to the system had been the turntable(and arm),the same cartridge having been used on both turntables.The difference I was hearing was staggering.The improvement I had been hoping to hear from a new cartridge(had I have bought one for the PX-2)was bettered beyond my wildest imagination,despite the cartridge(and system)being exactly the same.
I still to this day,reckon that the GT 2000 brought about the biggest single upgrade to a system(I've owned)of any component I have bought in the last 30+ years.
That led me to completely understand that if the cartridge is very capable(in it's own right)the degree of actual retrieval of that full performance capability depends upon whether(or not)the turntable(and arm)can provide a platform for the revelation of that capability.

This realisation has not dawned upon most people.Nor will it until they understand the the concept of the fact that the signal-chain is a one-way street,from the Source through to the speakers.Any resolution which is lost(at any point in the chain) cannot be retrieved at a point lower-down in the chain.
Naturally,since the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link,there is a requirement for an even spread of ability right along the chain.High-Fidelity can't be achieved by using the World's Best Turntable with a pin and a cone of paper as stylus and acoustical-transducer.There has to be a bit of rationalisation when deciding how to weigh-up the cost spread across the chain.

 

[RickB]

For example, my LP12/Ittok gives sound I'm happy with with cartridges that use $30-70 replacement styli. If I want to step up the performance level, I'd save that $500 or so per year in re-tip fees for a while until I can afford a better power supply (Lingo or Radikal), tonearm (Ekos), or structural modification (Keel). To my ears, those types of improvements, even with the same $80 cartridge, give better sound than just putting on a more expensive cartridge.

I agree, to a point, but no matter how good the less expensive cartridges are, the point of something like my Benz H2O is brought home every time I install it on my LP12/Ittok/Valhalla...it even makes such things as my Denon DL103S sound almost less than satisfactory in comparison...

It's one of those things where you just say to yourself "Oh, wow, THAT's what it's all about!!!" Each and every album, each and every genre, each and every time, is just significantly better...

Really, compared to all the Shures, AT's, ADC, Grado, and Ortofon cartridges I do have, and I have dozens, installing the Benz leads to a transcendental experience.

So, if you really want to hear what your Linn is capable of, get out of the cheap cartridge range and put on something at least the level of a Benz Ace S...you'd be surprised at what it will do for you...the Benz cartridges and Linn tables always seem to work well together...in fact, I installed a Benz Ace S on a customer's LP12 about a month ago, replacing a tired low output Dynavector, no, I don't remember the model...I also tuned up the Sondek with new springs, grommets, and belt..the fellow is a very capable listener and was absolutely amazed at the transformation that the table underwent...he has had it for several years and had been previously service by the guy who taught me everything I know about Linns...so, if there would not have been much of a transformation, I would have heard about it...but he was amazed at what sound he was now getting....and, his whole system has no digital input devices, but does have a custom low output MC only Rega IOS phono preamp, and all 47 Labs electronics...

So, while your cheap cartridges are sounding possibly as good as they can, your system isn't...

Plus, if you clean your records and clean your stylus, and use Stylast after cleaning the stylus and before playing, you'll get way more than a year out of your cartridges....

 

[jrtrent]

So, while your cheap cartridges are sounding possibly as good as they can, your system isn't.

I understand your point, and even agree with it to a degree. For me it becomes a question of how I want to meet what Linn used to call my level of musical expectation. Once met, making the system sound even better becomes superfluous, and to make the system sound "as good as it can" would involve a never-ending process of upgrades to all aspects of the system.

When I bought my first LP12, it was just because I was finally hearing music rather than just sound through my system (the Linn replacing a Thorens but still being used with an inexpensive integrated amp and $80 bookshelf speakers). Over the next few years, and as Linn came out with their own electronics, I found that my level of musical expectation would be met with an LP12/Ittok/Basik/LK1/LK2/Sara system. It took a few years of scrimping and saving, and a kind dealer who let me start with Index Plus speakers and get full trade-in value for them later, but I eventually assembled that system and used it virtually unchanged for most of the next 20 years.

Out of curiousity, I did once try an Asaka, knowing the re-build cost was $200. A year later when I was ready to have the work done, the price had doubled. The Asaka brought some improvements to the sound, but not to the point I felt I was getting my money's worth. On the other hand, when the Cirkus upgrade came along, I saved for that and found it lifted my system to a new level, far beyond the difference between a Basik or K5 and an Asaka.

To my ears, cartridge changes typically offer differences in tonal balance, frequency extension, and, to some degree, soundstaging and detail retrieval, but it's the structural and power supply changes that offer fundamental musical improvements. You know, the types of improvements that make it possible for a person to give an even more resounding "yes" to the questions Linn asked prospective buyers to consider: do all the musicians seem to be playing together?; are you responding to the music by tapping in time?; can you hear all the instruments all the time?; can you pick out the bassline or any other musical instrument and follow it without difficulty? Music became even more involving with the Cirkused LP12 because it was easier for me to hear and understand what the musicians were trying to communicate. I haven't heard this kind of difference with just a cartridge change.

Plus, if you clean your records and clean your stylus, and use Stylast after cleaning the stylus and before playing, you'll get way more than a year out of your cartridges....

I'm shocked to hear a Linn owner talk about cleaning records and using anything other than a matchbook striker or (dry) vibrating pad stylus cleaner!! And Linn themselves suggested just over a thousand hours as the expected life for their styli. I easily reach 1000 hours per year, so have always changed the cartridge/stylus at least annually.

Well, maybe I'm kidding about cleaning records; I just recently purchased a Nitty Gritty Model 1.0 and am cleaning records for the first time since 1985. Since I now also have a Well Tempered product in my home, and they are not adamant about the damage "most" record cleaning devices can do, I felt I could get away with it.

 

[RickB]

Out of curiousity, I did once try an Asaka, knowing the re-build cost was $200. A year later when I was ready to have the work done, the price had doubled. The Asaka brought some improvements to the sound, but not to the point I felt I was getting my money's worth. On the other hand, when the Cirkus upgrade came along, I saved for that and found it lifted my system to a new level, far beyond the difference between a Basik or K5 and an Asaka.

I am quite familiar with the Asaka and do have an Asak....believe me, the Benz Ace S is a world apart from those, I like it way better than the Troika I used for a while, and the H2O is just sublime....

I would rate the Asaka and earlier Asak in the range of a decent Denon DL103, but a step below my DL103S with a factory Shibata stylus....

To my ears, cartridge changes typically offer differences in tonal balance, frequency extension, and, to some degree, soundstaging and detail retrieval, but it's the structural and power supply changes that offer fundamental musical improvements. You know, the types of improvements that make it possible for a person to give an even more resounding "yes" to the questions Linn asked prospective buyers to consider: do all the musicians seem to be playing together?; are you responding to the music by tapping in time?; can you hear all the instruments all the time?; can you pick out the bassline or any other musical instrument and follow it without difficulty? Music became even more involving with the Cirkused LP12 because it was easier for me to hear and understand what the musicians were trying to communicate. I haven't heard this kind of difference with just a cartridge change.

Well, to a point...but, the inner lighting that comes from a super cartridge is something you have to hear to believe...the cartridges you tried before were not in the same league as anything made by Benz of Switzerland....really, they're not, and never were...

I'm shocked to hear a Linn owner talk about cleaning records and using anything other than a matchbook striker or (dry) vibrating pad stylus cleaner!! And Linn themselves suggested just over a thousand hours as the expected life for their styli. I easily reach 1000 hours per year, so have always changed the cartridge/stylus at least annually.

Well, maybe I'm kidding about cleaning records; I just recently purchased a Nitty Gritty Model 1.0 and am cleaning records for the first time since 1985. Since I now also have a Well Tempered product in my home, and they are not adamant about the damage "most" record cleaning devices can do, I felt I could get away with it.

I NEVER believed that Flat Earth Crap by Linn and Rega, what a complete pant load!!!

I NEVER used the f-ing sandpaper...

From the beginning of my audio journey I always knew that clean records sounded better..and that letting anything sit on the surface wasn't going to be pushed out of the way by the stylus but actually ground into the surface to give you that f-ing click time after time after time....that bullpoop of Linn and Rega was just that...and yes, I have been schooled on Linn service and maintenance, I just don't drink that KoolAid...

Which is why I got into the LAST system in 1980 and never looked back...a couple of years before I even had my first halfway decent table, the PX-3, I was already hearing the difference on my PieceOKrap BIC...

So, yes, I do know that pristine records + LAST + STYLAST = greatly extended stylus life...a while back I looked at my 20 year old X-3MC through a Shure stylus microscope....the X-3 has always been treated with my version of proper cleaning + STYLAST...the line contact stylus was pristine, and had virtually no wear....

Most of the time I use the DL103S, but when I really want to hear what's on and in a piece of music, on goes the Benz...and I always wonder why the 'ell I even bother to take it off, it's that much better than all the other cartridges I have...

And this is on an early LP12 that has the latest springs, grommets, etc., and a Valhalla...but I do have it plugged into a voltage stabilizer/filter from IBM, and that change was not subtle, either...

I did change out the craptastic Linn arm lead, first with an XLO Reference, and now with a Graham Silver, and that, too, makes a large difference in what the deck is able to extract from the LP's...

So, yes, I love my Linn, but I'm not blinded by their errant philosophy to believe all that they have to say!

 

[RickB]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, the fellow that I recently installed that Ace S on also bought a VPI 16.5 at the same time along with some of the Audio Intelligent Vinyl Systems cleaning materials and brush and some LAST...

To paraphrase what he said about that purchase, he said the there had not been anything that he had ever done with his vinyl that made as huge a difference as cleaning it...he was going back and cleaning albums he thought was clean before and just been amazed at what the system is doing for him now...

He said that between the service, the new cartridge, and the VPI that this was the best he had ever heard his system sound...

So, go figure that ANYONE would ever adhere to Linn's record cleaning philosophy...as I said before, what a pant load.

 

[melofelo]

washing up liquid is a good record cleaner

 

[markd51]

I can't see myself paying $75,000 for anything I cant live in or drive.

[[/U]
Unless if maybe you had Michael Jordan's bank Accounts........

 

[markd51]

Aha! another true believer!

I say without reservation, that Jim Pendelton, the President of AIVS, is making the best cleaning products money can buy, bar none. You may have noticed Jim is no longer a sponsor here.

I've heard he was pummeled with threats, rude emails, and all sorts of stuff while he had his short stay here.

Which I sort of found hard to believe, because I think basically, the majority of folks here on AKarma are quite a fine bunch of folks. :thmbsp:

And I do love this forum as well, as we pretty much have a free reign of freedom of speech, and opinions, pro, and con, versus Audiogon, in which the moderators really have a "biased stick up thier asses", and cater to a few favorite "pets" there. Mark

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, the fellow that I recently installed that Ace S on also bought a VPI 16.5 at the same time along with some of the Audio Intelligent Vinyl Systems cleaning materials and brush and some LAST...

To paraphrase what he said about that purchase, he said the there had not been anything that he had ever done with his vinyl that made as huge a difference as cleaning it...he was going back and cleaning albums he thought was clean before and just been amazed at what the system is doing for him now...

He said that between the service, the new cartridge, and the VPI that this was the best he had ever heard his system sound...

So, go figure that ANYONE would ever adhere to Linn's record cleaning philosophy...as I said before, what a pant load.

 

[jrtrent]

I NEVER believed that Flat Earth Crap by Linn and Rega, what a complete pant load!!!

I NEVER used the f-ing sandpaper...

that bullpoop of Linn and Rega was just that...and yes, I have been schooled on Linn service and maintenance, I just don't drink that KoolAid...

I did change out the craptastic Linn arm lead

So, yes, I love my Linn, but I'm not blinded by their errant philosophy to believe all that they have to say!

So, go figure that ANYONE would ever adhere to Linn's record cleaning philosophy...as I said before, what a pant load.

It would appear you have some strong feelings on the matter. Time for me to meditate once again on the collected wisdom of Ivor "Jim Jones" Tiefenbrun.

 

[RickB]

It would appear you have some strong feelings on the matter. Time for me to meditate once again on the collected wisdom of Ivor "Jim Jones" Tiefenbrun.

Turntables and cartridges are an electromechanical system and certain laws of physics will always apply...

That doesn't mean the comments engineers made several decades ago still hold water...too many of us out here in the world have heard the benefits of clean records...my first epiphany was with the LAST stuff as I said before, then with The Disc Doctor's Miracle Record cleaning system, then my VPI 16.5, then the AIVS fluids and brushes...so, yes, been down the road a bit in the past 30 some-odd years since I got my first Discwasher and have heard evidence to the contrary in my own system of what the Flat Earthers believed...

In fact, the LP's I bought back in the late seventies and early eighties and treated with LAST are still darn near noise free...anything that I did not treat, on the other hand, has not fared as well....I guess that's enough proof for me...