musichal
poet emeritus
tomay-to, tomah-to
Your experience with finding "Synergy"
- Thread starter madmonda
- Start date
tomay-to, tomah-to
jazzmans
Super Member
All I can contribute to this discussion, is my Magneplaner 1.6 Q.R.s sound infinitely better being driven by a Carver PM 350. (350 WPC RMS @ 8 ohms) then they did being driven by a Rotel RB 1080 ST (200 WPC RMS @ 8 ohms).
I just had both amps into my local shop for a once over, and a couple of re-solders, and my maggies were just refurbished by the same shop about six months ago.
The difference isn't subtle. It's Striking. I'm seriously sitting here with my mouth open, listening to music I'm extremely intimate with, and being shocked and amazed.
There isn't enough of a power difference to explain the sound difference, but there is no doubt they (my maggies) sound amazing right now, better then I've ever heard them.
Yay Synergy!
jaz
I just had both amps into my local shop for a once over, and a couple of re-solders, and my maggies were just refurbished by the same shop about six months ago.
The difference isn't subtle. It's Striking. I'm seriously sitting here with my mouth open, listening to music I'm extremely intimate with, and being shocked and amazed.
There isn't enough of a power difference to explain the sound difference, but there is no doubt they (my maggies) sound amazing right now, better then I've ever heard them.
Yay Synergy!
jaz
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Certainly there are similarities to what i call careful component matching, and others are referring to as synergy, at least from a certain angle. But the most significant difference is in the how and the why.
If you look for a bit, ,it can be found in threads that synergy proponents say that all you need is a large collection of gear, and if you try enough combinations out eventually you will find the one that achieves synergy. I actually thought a post like that resides in this thread, but I cannot find it. But I got only 10 minutes till i got to get out the door to work. So the mechanism of "why" this combination works is of little importance. Which is where it becomes a sticking point to me.
I look at it this way. Instead of having a collection of gear, say 4 amps ranging between $350 and $500 on the used market, and looking for synergy between them and a certain pair of speakers of which there are 6 pair each costing between $100 and $500. I would be an advocate of spending that cash on one $1000-$1500 amp and one pair of $1500-$2000 speakers. But I would spend my time researching the why these pairings should work together. If possible auditioning or getting in home trials of the gear. Understanding why two components should work well together is important to the building process. but that is just how i do things, and certainly is not for everyone.
There is an example above about a Rotel amplifier and a Carver driving a pair of Maggie speakers. The Carver sounds significantly better to the owner, and I certainly wouldn't repudiate his observations. But why does it sound better? Is it a larger power supply that can pass more current? Is it due to a non current limiting circuit? Is it due to the use of globabl negative feedback in the Rotel? Is there a difference in slew rate, amps of current, and noise floor? Is ther a difference in output devices? Certainly thre must be a difference in circuit topology. The question of "why" is often of little interest to synergists, With that being so there is no way to extrapolate and make educated selections in the future, or to help others in the hobby see a path for them to follow. To me the how and the wqhy are important. I do not put gear on test benches and claim only what I can measure is relevant. But I do want to have an understanding of the mechanism of improved sound quality, and I would like it to roughly jive with what are known electrical and physical laws.
But its out the door to work for me, I gotta cut this short.
Regards
Mister Pig
This is simply not true. No one has said that synergy is a magical process. Only those who say it does not exist. The problem we all have is no different from yours. We all lack the skills and equipment to use measurement as a means to find synergy. What is left is observation and anecdote. These are both meaningful sources of information that we can share, to deepen our awareness of what may help us find synergy.
Cost of the object makes no difference. Synergy happens at all price points, used and new. And there are many reasons to like a system and different tastes.
musichal
poet emeritus
I will quibble a bit with what you wrote about "synergists not caring why"...
I don't believe that it's a lack of caring why, at all. I feel there are many of us who doubt the predictability you propose using specs. It's easy to listen to a system, then decide the specs prove what you heard - that's just good Monday-mornin' quarterbacking, at which I'm expert myself.
Sometimes I even make an accurate prediction of what to me is a foreseeable outcome based on the way two teams match up, but am no expert there, for certain. I get those wrong much more often.I claim I have heard some synergistic combinations of system and room a few times in my life, such that the SQ was startlingly exceptional, but I do not claim that any electrical conventions or laws of physics suffered casualties in the process, nor in unicorn magic, for that matter. It is merely insulting to so characterize and generalize what you seem to perceive as a group who believe in some sort of mystic, magical kingdom of synergy. I simply believe too many factors are involved to make adequate mathematical predictions of why, when, where and how this excellence occurs, or even to distill it into a mathematical equation when it does.
This is not to suggest that your attention to characteristics of amplifiers' and speakers' specifications aren't useful or important, but they don't tell the whole story, either. That's all I'm saying, and as always, I enjoy reading your posts, and respect your opinion, Mr. Pig.
I'll Chime in.......
Synergy exists. It is not magic, it can be measured. Seeing that none of us have an audio lab, sound room & $50K of instruments, when the right combination comes forth it does seem like magic.
There is also a synergy in-between components and this includes tube rolling. Not one tube fits all. So, it does exist. We all hear it.
Synergy exists. It is not magic, it can be measured. Seeing that none of us have an audio lab, sound room & $50K of instruments, when the right combination comes forth it does seem like magic.
There is also a synergy in-between components and this includes tube rolling. Not one tube fits all. So, it does exist. We all hear it.
bobins08
Celebrating Life
Synergy exists, I agree.
Defined as the interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects
In audio system desing, to my thinking synergy can be achieved by following basic known laws of science:
Matching a cartridge to a tonearm -- you gain synergy by following compliance matching to achieve ~ 10hz.
Matching to a phono stage -- optimze the cartridge to the resistive and capacitive loading of the phono stage.
Amplifiers -- select components that match the room size and the speaker design (especially efficiency). A 200 watt amp in a 12 X 12 bedroom will still sound good but might be overkill, especially fo rthose on a budget.
Yes, good amps sound much better than mediocre ones. Quiet power supply designs and the ability to drive complex reactive loads (speakers) - better amplifiers excel at this and you can hear this. In general separate power amps sound better than integrateds and/or receivers for a number of reasons, one being it has a dedicated power supply for one job.
Speakers -- I think ther is a lot of leeway in matching speakers to amplifiers. Speaker effciency ratings are helpful to selecting/matching to an amplifier. Integrating speakers into your listening space is another story. Time spent optimizing the layout within the room creates synergy.
Interconnects and cables - yes good ones sound better than poor ones.
Your room --- placement of components, avoiding unwanted vibration of components, damping or defusing troublesome walls, corners, floors and ceilings. These are all things that help achieve syngery where the room cooperates with the sound waves.
In summary, synergy is not a single measurable value it is the art of integrating and optimizing everything in your system to you. You are integrated into the room by the chair, the controls, the comfort level/ surroundings, and even the amount of budget you spend to get to your goals.
just my 2 cents, Bob
Agree. Many talks about wattage match of amp and speaker, (but) so as the matching of their sound signatures too. When the above 2 components are audited separately, they both fail. But a careful catch (buy) of both will bring synergy. I advocate this buy, maybe $400 + $400 altogether ,-than the $1500 + $1500 buy ( thread #43). This is FOR ME only.
I say no 2 persons' listening are the same, and may be your left ear hears different with your right ear. 2 components do not sound identical even of the same model ( manufacturer test reports at factory - common for speakers ). So enjoy the synergy pair found. At the end of the day, it is the music coming from the gears gives you the sense of sweet spot. Listen to music not gears.
Last edited:
Vinylcafe
Linvin' the Dream
JBL L-100s with the Fisher 500C sound great in my opinion.
I had read a lot about the Century's "boom and tizz" but never heard it.
Then I hooked them up to a rebuilt Luxman R1070, and there it was; lots of boomy base and fatiguing shrill highs.
Conversely, the Boston A-400s were flat on the Fisher but came alive when hooked up to the Luxman. Way better and punchier, tighter bass.
So no question there are sweet and not-so-sweet combinations.
I had read a lot about the Century's "boom and tizz" but never heard it.
Then I hooked them up to a rebuilt Luxman R1070, and there it was; lots of boomy base and fatiguing shrill highs.
Conversely, the Boston A-400s were flat on the Fisher but came alive when hooked up to the Luxman. Way better and punchier, tighter bass.
So no question there are sweet and not-so-sweet combinations.
Great things to look for. Thanks Bob!
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Yeah, I swear by those early-solid-state Sansuis. They do a tubelike sound as well as any other brand from that era, and I think that was what those Fishers needed. I get that same kind of synergy with my W90's and my 2000x, but an AU-505a would be even better for my situation (More a case of wattage than anything else... 25wpc is perfect for my room with those speakers).
Anyway, I found great synergy with the early '70's Sansui 2000x, a '60's Dual 1019, an HRT MSII dac, and my early Wharfedale W90's. The speakers need a tube/tubelike amp/receiver to bring out their best. That warm, engaging sound really opens them up, plus the early-solid-state Sansui receivers and amps have an especially-good low-end response, same as the W90's. And the idler-driven Dual models are also great for tube/tubelike setups (Dual, Wharfedale, and Sansui were all available to American servicemen at US Armed Forces bases around the world back in the '60's and '70's, and a lot of those systems made their way back to the states).
After some turntable-tweaking last night, I finally have a consistent, high-synergy setup with no major weak links. My 1019 is working beautifully now and sounding very, very-good.
The last unicorn magic I experienced is when I hooked my newly acquired Klipsch Hersheys to a cheapo Sony STR-DE197 receiver. ($99.95 on sale at Amazon) It is the best sounding combination of amp and speakers I have ever owned, and that includes Marantz, JBL, Technics, lots of stuff through the years. I was listening to an old Doris Day recording (Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps) a few weeks ago, and I swear if you closed your eyes you would assume a live singer was standing right in front of you. If someone had told me before that this combo of components would sound so spectacular, I'd laugh in their faces.
I have experienced the 'synergy' effect in several areas, not just audio, and fully believe in it. And, BTW, I am a licensed professional engineer with lots of audio and RF design/testing experience. I agree with Mr. Pig that it can be ultimately explained with some sort of specification or measurement , but that such a spec may not be discovered in our lifetimes. Until then, it just seems like magic.
I have experienced the 'synergy' effect in several areas, not just audio, and fully believe in it. And, BTW, I am a licensed professional engineer with lots of audio and RF design/testing experience. I agree with Mr. Pig that it can be ultimately explained with some sort of specification or measurement , but that such a spec may not be discovered in our lifetimes. Until then, it just seems like magic.
The quotes above hit closest to my view on synergy, or component matching, or whatever term a person wants to use. In the 1980's, I assembled an all-Linn system because the sonic attributes their products displayed were ones I cared about, such as note attack, dynamics, and the ability to communicate the pace and drive of a piece of music. Their shortcomings were mostly in the areas of ambience and soundstaging, which I really didn't care much about.
Later, I started assembling a different kind of system, one that would do better with the spatial properties of sound. I started with a Well Tempered Record Player and Grado cartridge, sending its output to a Grado phono stage. I chose Vandersteen speakers to replace the Linn Saras. In the middle, for a while, I still had my Linn amplifier, and, as a result, the system remained closed-in and airless. Switching to Audio by Van Alstine electronics suddenly brought about that deep, broad, open soundstage that I knew the other components could provide.
As rwortman said, if I understood him correctly, if you know the type of sound you want and choose components accordingly throughout the chain, you will likely be happy with the end result, avoiding the mismatches luvvinvinyl mentioned.
madmonda
Active Member
Good discussion. Good points of view. Call it what you want, but my turd speakers and my baby sui are making sweet music to my ears and that's what's important. I'll leave the number crunchers and spec chasers to do their thing and I'll continue to believe in my "synergy" theory. D*mn near haven't touched my other combos since posting, even 'tho they're supposed to be better, by common standards. I keep coming back to this simple, unsuspecting system. Maybe I've found my internal, 'this sounds nice' combo, regardless of perfect tonality, placement, or any other audiophile mumbo jumbo. And...no offense to anyone.