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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

http://www.bmspro.info/index.php?show=item&usbid=10278&id=54358

Put it on the waveguide and dial the frequency through the range of interest on an active crossover while listening for coloration.

Here's one of several 4th-order crossovers I built to make 2407H/4540nd play nice down that low. I only use it above 2 kHz now:

..snip...

[NOT "Econo," obviously.... ;) ]

That's some nice-looking crossover!

I have no experience with BMS drivers, even though they are easy to get here in Europe (and much cheaper than JBL).

In which systems does JBL use (or: did use?) the BMS-made 2407?

The impedance curve for the 4540 on the BMS site, indicates a resonance frequency of about 1.7 kHz. That's a bit high for my liking when crossing at 1-1.2 k. The 4550 or -52nd seems to me a better choice.

Or maybe the proven B&C DE-250 dr. Geddes uses (and I haven't tried), or the Beyma CP380 which often gets favourable mentions (and that I have tried, with good results). Maybe even the cheap Eminence PSD-2002? Anyone tried that one?

Or JBL 2425/26, of course.

And for bass units the JBL 2204 seems hard to beat in this application.
 
In which systems does JBL use (or: did use?) the BMS-made 2407?

The impedance curve for the 4540 on the BMS site, indicates a resonance frequency of about 1.7 kHz. That's a bit high for my liking when crossing at 1-1.2 k. The 4550 or -52nd seems to me a better choice.
It's in the AE Series and others. JBL has since made its own version with a metal phase plug, 2408H, which is less expensive. I have a pair, but have not worked with them extensively.

Again, BMS 4540 is not comparable to the more general-purpose compression drivers you mention in these applications. It's a tweeter, spec'd to 30 kHz. None of the others play that.... :thmbsp:
 
It's in the AE Series and others. JBL has since made its own version with a metal phase plug, 2408H, which is less expensive. I have a pair, but have not worked with them extensively.

Again, BMS 4540 is not comparable to the more general-purpose compression drivers you mention in these applications. It's a tweeter, spec'd to 30 kHz. None of the others play that.... :thmbsp:

Have you gotten around to giving 2425H a go? I'm dying to see it on the waveguide!

Russellc
 
Earl Geddes's measurements of the the EconoWave polar response are now posted on the GedLee website:

http://140.174.80.168/downloads/Horn VS waveguide.pdf

[With commentary.... ;) ]

hehe

and very nice conversation on DiyA ;)


anyway ,Zilch , just a quickie question , before I go mad with searching through numerous threads here ; you wrote in first post in this thread :

"Member Jackgiff sent me pairs of two different inexpensive Selenium compression drivers for measurement and evaluation with Altec 811B horns in another thread.....................
..........
5) D210Ti vs. D220Ti on Model 19 crossover (Oops, legend reversed. D220Ti is Red & Org). D220Ti has better VHF frequency response, but unit-to-unit uniformity is not as good as D210Ti for these samples. Results were similar on 811B."

so - main reason why I registered here is your writing about that JBL waveguide on DiyA ... but - from reason that I already have pair of 811B , along with D205Ti (and 210 or 220 aren't hard to get here where I live ) , I'm really interested in your comments and xperiences regarding that combination ....

hehe , long intro for short question : what thread exactly is - where you measured 811B ?


last , but not least - tnx for fun with that "poor man's (not) Wguide " :banana:
 
Earl Geddes's measurements of the the EconoWave polar response are now posted on the GedLee website:

http://140.174.80.168/downloads/Horn VS waveguide.pdf

[With commentary.... ;) ]

Been lurking on this thread since its inception. When some began to engage Dr. Geddes for his blessing of the goodness of the econowaveguide project, my unexpressed thought was that old proverb "be careful what you wish for..." FWIW (not much, I know) the results and commentary are no surprise to me nor should they be to anyone else. Probably best to enjoy what you've achieved for what it is.
 
hehe , long intro for short question : what thread exactly is - where you measured 811B ?
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147170

Last page, particularly.... :yes:

Been lurking on this thread since its inception. When some began to engage Dr. Geddes for his blessing of the goodness of the econowaveguide project, my unexpressed thought was that old proverb "be careful what you wish for..." FWIW (not much, I know) the results and commentary are no surprise to me nor should they be to anyone else. Probably best to enjoy what you've achieved for what it is.
Well, it hasn't shaken out entirely, yet, but Geddes's second set of curves, equalized, as we have done in this EconoWave project, tell rather more about how good the $9.90 JBL waveguide, and what we have done with it, actually is.... :thmbsp:
 
DI-matched two-way loudspeakers

I don't get over here much but I just dropped by. I like what you're doing very much. I hope I'm not out of line to drop a few ideas here.

I've been making DI-matched two-way speakers like this for well over a decade, nearer to two decades. I like this approach and I applaud you guys and your efforts.

Points in no particular order:

1. Tweeter compensation
The R1/R2/C1 compensation circuit I use does two things. It gives 6dB/octave HF augmentation after an initial shelf of flat response. The way it gets that initial shelf is by providing specific damping to the high-pass filter. It's actually slightly underdamped, which raises the bottom end a little. The end result is the curve we want - a conjugate of the driver's power response.

Tweeter Compensation

2. Woofer directivity
Woofer directivity collapses generally as a function of wavelength and radiator diamater. But the radiator isn't flat so cone profile (including dust cap) plays a part too. It also is smaller than the frame, i.e. 15" woofers have diameter of 12-13" or so. So in the end, directivity is a collapsing cone but you cannot assume a 12" midwoofer will have the directivity of a 12" flat round radiator. It would be closer to that of an 9-10" round radiator.

3. Source locations and crossover topology
Tweeter horns (or waveguides, if you prefer the name) have a length that sets the source location back. This represents a fixed delay. Direct radiating woofers are also set back some fixed amount, by virtue of the fact they are cone shaped. Another fixed delay.

Then there are reactive offsets. The woofer's voice coil inductance, cone mass and driver suspension create a changing reactance that makes a changing acoustic phase. The cabinet has an impact too, but not significant at crossover frequencies for a DI-matched two-way. Horns, whether conical CD or any other have a reactive element in addition to diaphragm mass and voice coil inductance. The horn tends to make the system less reactive at high frequencies, but at low frequencies it usually has some ripples.

All of this has to come together in the crossover for summing to be flat. In my experience, the woofer and tweeter in a system like this usually work better with an asymmetrical crossover, one with different slopes or different apparent crossover points, or both. Just by looking at the physical offsets, many conclude that the woofer should be crossed over with a higher slope to compensate for the longer path length of the horn. In my experience, this is rarely the case because a horn of the right size to DI match isn't that much longer than the distance to the woofer's acoustic center, and the woofer has electro-mechanical characteristics that delay it more.

For example, my four Pi loudspeaker has 3rd order slopes for both woofer and tweeter, but the woofer has values that roll it off around 1.3kHz and the tweeter has values that bring it in a little later, around 1.6kHz. A second order crossover on the woofer works pretty well too. Fourth order is OK, but insertion loss adds up. Third/third and 1.3kHz and 1.6kHz works best for me. See the response curve at the link below:

four Pi performance data
(four Pi speaker with JBL 2226 and B&C DE250 on H290 horn flare; Optional components can be Eminence Omega 15 and/or Eminence PSD2002)

4. Vertical directivity, round horns verses rectangular horns
When a tweeter is placed on the baffle above the woofer, lobes form above and below the front axis. Depending on the position, the lobes will generally be somewhere between 20 and 25 degrees or so. This makes the maximum vertical coverage angle be 40 t0 50 degrees before the nulls cause non-uniform response. That's why I've always championed the use of rectangular horns for DI matched speakers. You can match the horizontal pattern around 90 degrees, which is a nice spread. The vertical pattern will be limited by the null angle, so it makes sense to mate a horn with that vertical pattern, generally 40 or 50 degrees.

Coverage of DI matched speakers

If you use a 90 degree axisymmetrical horn, the pattern narrows sharply in the vertical through the crossover region and then widens back up above it. The off-axis response shows a sharp dip in the crossover region. To avoid this, it always seemed to me to be a better idea to use a horn with vertical pattern that matches the null angle. Small horns don't generally have much pattern control at low frequencies but in this case, the null angles tend to punctuate pattern cutoff. Some (many) rooms have lively ceiling reflections too, so a narrow vertical pattern is a benefit. Clap your hands and listen for the ping from the ceiling. A narrow verical pattern helps reduce this.
 
I don't get over here much but I just dropped by. I like what you're doing very much. I hope I'm not out of line to drop a few ideas here.
Not at all. We were hoping you might participate in our project. If you have the opportunity to read from the beginning of this thread, you'll see that we relied substantially upon your filter design approach as documented on the Pi-Speakers website. Member Jackgiff, particularly, put in the requisite effort to study your tutorial and implement those principles here.

Just by looking at the physical offsets, many conclude that the woofer should be crossed over with a higher slope to compensate for the longer path length of the horn. In my experience, this is rarely the case because a horn of the right size to DI match isn't that much longer than the distance to the woofer's acoustic center, and the woofer has electro-mechanical characteristics that delay it more.
Yes, I first discovered in an earlier project using this waveguide that the acoustic center of the typical JBL woofers I work with is somewhat behind the voice coil due to electo-mechanical delay, and thus, no special offset of the waveguide is necessary. With proper filter topology, they may be phase-aligned on a flat baffle.

Thank you again for supporting our efforts, and please, time and inclination permitting, drop by and post more here on AudioKarma. Your input is much appreciated.... :thmbsp:
 
Been lurking on this thread since its inception. When some began to engage Dr. Geddes for his blessing of the goodness of the econowaveguide project, my unexpressed thought was that old proverb "be careful what you wish for..." FWIW (not much, I know) the results and commentary are no surprise to me nor should they be to anyone else. Probably best to enjoy what you've achieved for what it is.

Dont know where all this has come from, nothing was wished for here, it was designed and implimented. The Econowave guide , when actually built and equalized works in an excellent fashion.

While Earl's results and commentaries are no surprise to you ( which doesnt surprise me) actually building it and listening to it certainly would. His findings dont change one thing said by this group, not in the least bit.

Like Zilch says, wait until the equalized version is tested. Better yet throw one together and give it a listen. Its really a nice sounding setup. The people here responsible for the design have been around the block and heard a few speakers in their day, and have absolutely nothing to gain by econowaves sucess or failure.

Earl has at least decided to run tests on the bare driver/waveguide, whether he approves or disapproves. I think the surprise will begin to come when he tests the equalized version. While I think he said in part of his post that he wouldn't actually listen to it, but only test it, THAT is where the biggest surprise would be had.

If those looking at this thread want a pleasant surprise, please build econowave guide and try it. I personally assure you it doest suck! This group isnt that easy to please, and funny to me there has not been a single case of "Well I built it, no big deal".....every example in the thread has been people who are familiar with good sound, building speakers that produce it,
and not one of these people has failed to walk away impressed. So yes, we got exactly what we wanted. I also am reminded of the old proverb, "better to remain silent and appear slow, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.":yes:

Russellc
 
Welcome aboard, Wayne. I just briefly read through your post and will take a bit of time to digest it, however, what I quickly read was quite well done. Hope you stick around and become a regular contributor.

One thing I'd like you to expand upon would be the use of round"ish" or oval horns in leiu of rectangular. As a fan of controlled directivity, I have found that 60x40 oval shaped CD horns like the 18sound XT1464 to be nearly a perfect fit for typical home use.

That said, I heard Geddes' round Summa Cum Laude waveguides and they were without a doubt the best implementation of a CD waveguide I have encountered.
 
I don't get over here much but I just dropped by. I like what you're doing very much. I hope I'm not out of line to drop a few ideas here.

I've been making DI-matched two-way speakers like this for well over a decade, nearer to two decades. I like this approach and I applaud you guys and your efforts.

Points in no particular order:

1. Tweeter compensation
The R1/R2/C1 compensation circuit I use does two things. It gives 6dB/octave HF augmentation after an initial shelf of flat response. The way it gets that initial shelf is by providing specific damping to the high-pass filter. It's actually slightly underdamped, which raises the bottom end a little. The end result is the curve we want - a conjugate of the driver's power response.

Tweeter Compensation

2. Woofer directivity
Woofer directivity collapses generally as a function of wavelength and radiator diamater. But the radiator isn't flat so cone profile (including dust cap) plays a part too. It also is smaller than the frame, i.e. 15" woofers have diameter of 12-13" or so. So in the end, directivity is a collapsing cone but you cannot assume a 12" midwoofer will have the directivity of a 12" flat round radiator. It would be closer to that of an 9-10" round radiator.

3. Source locations and crossover topology
Tweeter horns (or waveguides, if you prefer the name) have a length that sets the source location back. This represents a fixed delay. Direct radiating woofers are also set back some fixed amount, by virtue of the fact they are cone shaped. Another fixed delay.

Then there are reactive offsets. The woofer's voice coil inductance, cone mass and driver suspension create a changing reactance that makes a changing acoustic phase. The cabinet has an impact too, but not significant at crossover frequencies for a DI-matched two-way. Horns, whether conical CD or any other have a reactive element in addition to diaphragm mass and voice coil inductance. The horn tends to make the system less reactive at high frequencies, but at low frequencies it usually has some ripples.

All of this has to come together in the crossover for summing to be flat. In my experience, the woofer and tweeter in a system like this usually work better with an asymmetrical crossover, one with different slopes or different apparent crossover points, or both. Just by looking at the physical offsets, many conclude that the woofer should be crossed over with a higher slope to compensate for the longer path length of the horn. In my experience, this is rarely the case because a horn of the right size to DI match isn't that much longer than the distance to the woofer's acoustic center, and the woofer has electro-mechanical characteristics that delay it more.

For example, my four Pi loudspeaker has 3rd order slopes for both woofer and tweeter, but the woofer has values that roll it off around 1.3kHz and the tweeter has values that bring it in a little later, around 1.6kHz. A second order crossover on the woofer works pretty well too. Fourth order is OK, but insertion loss adds up. Third/third and 1.3kHz and 1.6kHz works best for me. See the response curve at the link below:

four Pi performance data
(four Pi speaker with JBL 2226 and B&C DE250 on H290 horn flare; Optional components can be Eminence Omega 15 and/or Eminence PSD2002)

4. Vertical directivity, round horns verses rectangular horns
When a tweeter is placed on the baffle above the woofer, lobes form above and below the front axis. Depending on the position, the lobes will generally be somewhere between 20 and 25 degrees or so. This makes the maximum vertical coverage angle be 40 t0 50 degrees before the nulls cause non-uniform response. That's why I've always championed the use of rectangular horns for DI matched speakers. You can match the horizontal pattern around 90 degrees, which is a nice spread. The vertical pattern will be limited by the null angle, so it makes sense to mate a horn with that vertical pattern, generally 40 or 50 degrees.

Coverage of DI matched speakers

If you use a 90 degree axisymmetrical horn, the pattern narrows sharply in the vertical through the crossover region and then widens back up above it. The off-axis response shows a sharp dip in the crossover region. To avoid this, it always seemed to me to be a better idea to use a horn with vertical pattern that matches the null angle. Small horns don't generally have much pattern control at low frequencies but in this case, the null angles tend to punctuate pattern cutoff. Some (many) rooms have lively ceiling reflections too, so a narrow vertical pattern is a benefit. Clap your hands and listen for the ping from the ceiling. A narrow verical pattern helps reduce this.

Hi Wayne,
Nice to see you over here. Thanks for giving your thoughts on this project, it is sort of simlilar to the 4 PI, and I know you are a wealth of info in this area. You have shared with me numerous times on your nice forum, and your crossover treatise has been refered to numerous times during this project.

I have the eminence H290 horn that is used in the 4 PI, and was wondering how you think it varies from this 9.90 econowave horn? thanks again for your comments as they are appreciated greatly.

Russellc
 
Welcome aboard, Wayne. I just briefly read through your post and will take a bit of time to digest it, however, what I quickly read was quite well done. Hope you stick around and become a regular contributor.

One thing I'd like you to expand upon would be the use of round"ish" or oval horns in leiu of rectangular. As a fan of controlled directivity, I have found that 60x40 oval shaped CD horns like the 18sound XT1464 to be nearly a perfect fit for typical home use.

That said, I heard Geddes' round Summa Cum Laude waveguides and they were without a doubt the best implementation of a CD waveguide I have encountered.

Very interesting, this horn. I notice that the model mentioned is 1.4 inch version, do you recommend a 1 inch version?

thanks, Russellc
 
Welcome aboard, Wayne. I just briefly read through your post and will take a bit of time to digest it, however, what I quickly read was quite well done. Hope you stick around and become a regular contributor.

One thing I'd like you to expand upon would be the use of round"ish" or oval horns in leiu of rectangular. As a fan of controlled directivity, I have found that 60x40 oval shaped CD horns like the 18sound XT1464 to be nearly a perfect fit for typical home use.

That said, I heard Geddes' round Summa Cum Laude waveguides and they were without a doubt the best implementation of a CD waveguide I have encountered.

I heard Earl's Summa loudspeakers at GPAF 2005 and I liked them a lot. To me, they sound almost exactly like my four Pi loudspeakers. That's not unexpected, they're very similar.

The thing is, I prefer an asymmetrical horn for this application. It could be oval instead of rectangular, but I just don't think round horns work well for this kind of speaker. As I said, the vertical null angle sort of imposes a limit on uniform coverage. You can either terminate the pattern at the nulls, or you can extend past it in which case you have significant off-axis response ripple. Since the whole purpose is a uniform field, this isn't the direction I would go.

I also like the fact that HF energy isn't being directed up towards the ceiling. Try the clap test in a room, and see if you don't hear a sharp ping off the ceiling. In some rooms, it's pretty bad. I prefer to reduce that by not directing HF energies towards it.

I like what I see of the JBL horn you guys are talking about here. Looks like it would work very well. I also like the Peavey quadratic horns. Geddes champions the oblate spheroidal horns a lot, but he has also investigated the prolate spheroidal shape, which can be used to produce an asymmetrical pattern. That would be great too.
 
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147170

Last page, particularly.... :yes:

Well, it hasn't shaken out entirely, yet, but Geddes's second set of curves, equalized, as we have done in this EconoWave project, tell rather more about how good the $9.90 JBL waveguide, and what we have done with it, actually is.... :thmbsp:

tnx Zilch ;

in any case - seems that Econo Wguide is one of things which have no rights to be good .... looking at price :thmbsp: ........ but it is ......

anyone knowing practical difference between D205Ti and D210Ti ?

Selenium site isn't of any use regarding that ........
 
Welcome to AK, Wayne

Your comments are welcomed and appreciated. I really got an education reading your paper on the tweeter compensation used in this thread.

I also truly hope you will become a regular contributor to AK. It is a great place to hang out.
 
I also like the fact that HF energy isn't being directed up towards the ceiling. Try the clap test in a room, and see if you don't hear a sharp ping off the ceiling. In some rooms, it's pretty bad. I prefer to reduce that by not directing HF energies towards it.

I always assumed that was why horns evolved the way they have -- for most applications, a narrower vertical dispersion is preferred.

I use sound absorbing products on the ceiling in 2 relatively small areas, midway between my listening position and the speakers, even with horn monitors, the imaging and phantom image improve.

I've moved away from dome tweeters in part for this reason. The dispersion pattern of the JBL waveguide seems to work very well in this regard. So I can see how a more tightly controlled vertical pattern is desirable.

Building the Econowave, ongoing for me, is a great educational experience and I am looking forward to enjoying the fruits of my labor.

Thanks to Jack and Zilch for being patient and coming up with this project.

:thmbsp:
 
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