I'm just here listening, and waiting on some results from you and Macaltec and Skywave (if he's got the Seleniums). Alex has a pair of the waveguides, as well, and Dave'll borrow from his JRXs, maybe.... :yes:
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
I so want in on this Selenium salon, but I must get my BMS Econo Waveguide rig upright first.
Zilch, is the 90x50 Econo Waveguide the only El-Cheapo JBL offers?
'Cause I'm thinking my Dumpster-Box Project could include Seleniums and a rotate-able PT Waveguide, so the speaker could be oriented both vertically and horizontally. Horizontally for near field studio monitoring, vertically on (or near) the floor.
But timing wise I'm not there yet.
Zilch, is the 90x50 Econo Waveguide the only El-Cheapo JBL offers?
'Cause I'm thinking my Dumpster-Box Project could include Seleniums and a rotate-able PT Waveguide, so the speaker could be oriented both vertically and horizontally. Horizontally for near field studio monitoring, vertically on (or near) the floor.
But timing wise I'm not there yet.
I just got in a pair of D220Ti drivers... BUT, I'm going to use them on my favorite cheap flare (the one that looks like a slightly-shrunken 811 with no fins- as I used in the Seeburg DDS1 custom rebuild). Got a pair of those flares here too.
I've got a pair of older Utah 15" woofer frames, with 2" voice coils... I'm going to recone those with the same type cone I used in the JBL M115-8 frames, for the Seeburg project. That, with a passive radiator on the back (instead of a vent) of a 5 cubic foot cabinet... I think I should ought to be able get something going on!
BTW: From my recollection of the curves I got with the flares I use, the bottom end is a little smoother than the PT waveguides and Altec 811s... I don't remember having that pronounced of a peak at 1800 Hz or so. But, we'll have to see what happens, when I bolt 'em together and fire them up with the 220i, instead of the 210i...
Regards,
Gordon.
I've got a pair of older Utah 15" woofer frames, with 2" voice coils... I'm going to recone those with the same type cone I used in the JBL M115-8 frames, for the Seeburg project. That, with a passive radiator on the back (instead of a vent) of a 5 cubic foot cabinet... I think I should ought to be able get something going on!
BTW: From my recollection of the curves I got with the flares I use, the bottom end is a little smoother than the PT waveguides and Altec 811s... I don't remember having that pronounced of a peak at 1800 Hz or so. But, we'll have to see what happens, when I bolt 'em together and fire them up with the 220i, instead of the 210i...
Regards,
Gordon.
Yup, the other PTs are more like $100 apiece. Let me say that the $10 price does not diminish its performance, and I've tested a poo-pot of horns here.
C'mon, Gordon, spring for a pair of El-cheapo PTs and play with us here. I'd like to see what you come up with for a filter.
I don't consider the 1.8 kHz bump a problem; it can be readily handled in the highpass. You can see the M19 crossover knocks it down substantially.
I'll probably take it out in the compensation filter for running active biamp.... :yes:
Fred Sanford
Addicted Member
I've got some DT150s lying around, one with a bad diaphragm...should be fixing that soon, but give me a shout if you think one is worth sending your way for testing, Zilch. They're currently threaded on 4.5" x 4.5" x 3" deep squarish horns, and were potentially slated for small vocal monitors mated with two JBL E120s I have kicking around. Any feedback would be appreciated, including a source for the diaphragm.
Thanks,
je
Thanks,
je
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
Played around today in the workshop with the D220Ti/JBL waveguide and the LE14A running sitting on the bench (no cabinet or baffle) just to provide some bass. The D220 sounds pretty good at 1.2 KHz, but til the woofer is in a cabinet, it isn't worthwhile doing any measurements or fine tuning.
I will go to my storage shop at work tomorrow, where my Altec Santana cabinets are. Also have 3/4 inch fiberboard and my saws, so will cut some baffles for them, and mount the woofers into the cabs. That way, I will be able to A/B the Econo pair, with my BMS driven pair.
Looks like I might need an electronic crossover so I can easily change the crossover freqs without having to order new parts or bugger up inductors by removing windings. It may ultimately be cheaper than having two buckets full of inductors.
Also tried a three way approach with the LE14 crossing over into a 104H-2 at 900 HZ, and then into the D220Ti at 3.5 KHz, and really liked that combination. Had to muck up the 87 cubic inch enclosure for the 104, and even though it wouldn't be an Econo approach, it sure sounded sweeeeet!
I will go to my storage shop at work tomorrow, where my Altec Santana cabinets are. Also have 3/4 inch fiberboard and my saws, so will cut some baffles for them, and mount the woofers into the cabs. That way, I will be able to A/B the Econo pair, with my BMS driven pair.
Looks like I might need an electronic crossover so I can easily change the crossover freqs without having to order new parts or bugger up inductors by removing windings. It may ultimately be cheaper than having two buckets full of inductors.
Also tried a three way approach with the LE14 crossing over into a 104H-2 at 900 HZ, and then into the D220Ti at 3.5 KHz, and really liked that combination. Had to muck up the 87 cubic inch enclosure for the 104, and even though it wouldn't be an Econo approach, it sure sounded sweeeeet!
I do find DT150s on the [obnoxious] Selenium website; they are apparently a current product:
http://www.selenium.com.br/
They seem to be unclear whether the diaphragm is titanium or phenolic, but the minimum recommended crossover frequency is 4 kHz, so therefore it's probably not well suited to this project, i.e., it's a tweeter, not a mid/high horn driver. It's also only spec'd out to 15 kHz.
I'd guess any of the online Selenium distributors would have or be able to obtain the replacement diaphragm. A call to the US rep would certainly resolve any questions about where to get them.... :thmbsp:
I'm going to recommend you get the Behringer CX3400 that several of us are using, good 2-way, 2-way plus sub, or 3-way.
It's connected into my test setup here, and when I want to run passive, I just pull the input XLR and plug that of whichever amp I want to use into it. The mutes, inverts, and versatile array of gain controls make system configuration a breeze.... :yes:
Cool!
That'll make at least four of us positioned to swap the Seleniums with BMS for qualitative comparisons.... :thmbsp:
Fred Sanford
Addicted Member
Parts Express has the diaphragm- cheap, too. They sell the driver & horn as a package, apparently both are Selenium products.
Doesn't look like the 4K x-over point would be awful with the E-120 under it, though, so my plan might work for my purposes.
je
P.S. phenolic:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-242s.pdf
The curves don't look all that bad below there, and the limiting factor may be that horn. On the PT waveguide, you may be able to reach at least an octave lower, from what I see. :yes:
The DCX is in my stack, too, but it's not even plugged in. I've never mustered the motivation to wade through the manual and figure it out.I've got a few projects looming, but if i ever get caught up, i'd like to see what could be done with a DCX-2496. It's got plenty of EQ to clean up the worst of the response problems in the graphs. Although, i'd prefer to use some of the 18sound lenses.
If I was just doing one system, it'd almost certainly work for me, but some days it's four or five different setups here, and chaos reigns supreme....
:
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
My first pass at an EconoWave.
Got some baffles cut and drilled to mount the LE14A's in my extra pair of Altec Santana's. Cabinets are tuned for 35 Hz, which gives some pretty nice bass. The baffles include the ports, which can easily be moved to the rear of the cabinets, allowing room to cut in the JBL waveguide at the end, if they sound decent. (I think they will)
Crossover parts will be here tomorrow, but I have enough "spares" to build a 1.2 KHz crossover for one side. When the parts get here, I can build a 1.5 KHz xover to compare the response and sound at both 1.2 and 1.5 KHz. The parts I ordered are for 1.2 KHz crossovers, which calls for 1.5 Millihenry inductors, and turns can be removed to lower them to the 1.2 Mh required for 1.5 Khz.
Selenium recommends 1.5 KHz as the lowest crossover for the D220Ti, but if the D210Ti works great at 1.2 KHz, as Gordon W. and others state, the D220Ti should work there as well. And the LE14A's work great at 1.2 KHZ, but not at the 2 Kz levels that JBL sometimes pushed them to. My anticipated crossover is 1.35 KHz, which is just slightly above the LE14A's proven band, and just slightly below the D220Ti's recommended cross.
Pics are included to show the cabinets and HF stuff on top. FR's are shown, which detail the response of the LE14A's alone, the best tuning with no correction of the response variations of the D220Ti, and one showing how much gain needs to be "thrown away" to compensate the D220Ti's to the LE14A's. Look's like about 10 Db after flattening the D220Ti's. I will wait to make that decision till the compensation is done for the HF drivers.
Now it's time to go do some serious listening to see if the HF driver can play at 1.2 KHz. Love my job.
Got some baffles cut and drilled to mount the LE14A's in my extra pair of Altec Santana's. Cabinets are tuned for 35 Hz, which gives some pretty nice bass. The baffles include the ports, which can easily be moved to the rear of the cabinets, allowing room to cut in the JBL waveguide at the end, if they sound decent. (I think they will)
Crossover parts will be here tomorrow, but I have enough "spares" to build a 1.2 KHz crossover for one side. When the parts get here, I can build a 1.5 KHz xover to compare the response and sound at both 1.2 and 1.5 KHz. The parts I ordered are for 1.2 KHz crossovers, which calls for 1.5 Millihenry inductors, and turns can be removed to lower them to the 1.2 Mh required for 1.5 Khz.
Selenium recommends 1.5 KHz as the lowest crossover for the D220Ti, but if the D210Ti works great at 1.2 KHz, as Gordon W. and others state, the D220Ti should work there as well. And the LE14A's work great at 1.2 KHZ, but not at the 2 Kz levels that JBL sometimes pushed them to. My anticipated crossover is 1.35 KHz, which is just slightly above the LE14A's proven band, and just slightly below the D220Ti's recommended cross.
Pics are included to show the cabinets and HF stuff on top. FR's are shown, which detail the response of the LE14A's alone, the best tuning with no correction of the response variations of the D220Ti, and one showing how much gain needs to be "thrown away" to compensate the D220Ti's to the LE14A's. Look's like about 10 Db after flattening the D220Ti's. I will wait to make that decision till the compensation is done for the HF drivers.
Now it's time to go do some serious listening to see if the HF driver can play at 1.2 KHz. Love my job.
Attachments
Last edited:
WOO HOO!! LOVE LE14s; they make compact and competent bass bins out of Santanas, quite obviously. :thmbsp:
I confirm I'm using ~9 - 10 dB of attenuation plus compensation to balance D220Ti with LE14. All of our designs should incorporate provision of a final fixed L-Pad on the HF in addition to an adjustable one so that they may be custom tailored for use with woofers of different sensitivities.
Your uncompensated response exhibits the 2 kHz peak prominently. Doing the asymmetric N800 trick may mitigate that somewhat, i.e., start the HF rolloff at a higher frequency than 1.2 kHz since there's excess response at the bottom. That will satisfy Selenium's minimum crossover frequency recommendation at the same time.
If that doesn't work, then a 2 kHz notch in your compensation filter will certainly get it. I'm just hoping those additional components will not be required and we will be able to smooth that out in the highpass filter itself via optimum choice of frequency and "Q".
I'll work on that more this weekend, now that I know it's real.... :yes:
I confirm I'm using ~9 - 10 dB of attenuation plus compensation to balance D220Ti with LE14. All of our designs should incorporate provision of a final fixed L-Pad on the HF in addition to an adjustable one so that they may be custom tailored for use with woofers of different sensitivities.
Your uncompensated response exhibits the 2 kHz peak prominently. Doing the asymmetric N800 trick may mitigate that somewhat, i.e., start the HF rolloff at a higher frequency than 1.2 kHz since there's excess response at the bottom. That will satisfy Selenium's minimum crossover frequency recommendation at the same time.
If that doesn't work, then a 2 kHz notch in your compensation filter will certainly get it. I'm just hoping those additional components will not be required and we will be able to smooth that out in the highpass filter itself via optimum choice of frequency and "Q".
I'll work on that more this weekend, now that I know it's real.... :yes:
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
There is hope there!
Those Altec engineers obviously knew what they were doing, didn't they?
I went back and tuned the crossover for 1.2 KHz low pass, and 2.5 KHz hi pass, and the results gained roughly 7 Db less compensation. I would guess there is more to gain, but we are still probably going to need some compensation necessary to flatten the response of the D220Ti, but until the crossover parts get here tomorrow, it is getting tough to keep coming up with values to change the crossover frequency. Guess I need the CX3400, huh?
The top FR is with 1.2 KHz both drivers, and the bottom is the 1.2 KHz low pass, 2.5 KHz hi pass.
And I spent some time listening to three cd's that I am very familiar with, and the D220Ti is a very nice driver. If it can be tuned at something over 1.5 KHz, we are in like Flynn.
Those Altec engineers obviously knew what they were doing, didn't they?
I went back and tuned the crossover for 1.2 KHz low pass, and 2.5 KHz hi pass, and the results gained roughly 7 Db less compensation. I would guess there is more to gain, but we are still probably going to need some compensation necessary to flatten the response of the D220Ti, but until the crossover parts get here tomorrow, it is getting tough to keep coming up with values to change the crossover frequency. Guess I need the CX3400, huh?
The top FR is with 1.2 KHz both drivers, and the bottom is the 1.2 KHz low pass, 2.5 KHz hi pass.
And I spent some time listening to three cd's that I am very familiar with, and the D220Ti is a very nice driver. If it can be tuned at something over 1.5 KHz, we are in like Flynn.
Attachments
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Sounds like fun, boys!
I'm just gonna be the wild-eyed maverick in the wilderness, and see what I can get out of THIS Nippon-America horn (like in the Seeburgs I did). Enough of you guys are already getting good results from the JBL PTs; somebody needs to "broaden the horizons" a bit, IMHO.
If anyone wants these horns, I can probably get them for other people for $30 or so each... anyone wants me to check, I'll be glad to. IMHO, they've just got a smooth quality (at least they did with the D210Tis) that is RARE for a horn. Especially with this simple of a crossover (low-Q 12 dB/oct. highpass with RC "treble boost" filter and an adjustable L-pad). They're considerably bigger than the JBL horns (16" wide, 9" tall), but that's good too- these are actually rated down to 500 Hz (which means they're just LOAFING at 1200 Hz, or effectively even HIGHER, electrically, after the excess low-end response is filtered off)...
Regards,
Gordon.
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
We went for broke.
Since I was playing games searching for the ideal "Altec Valencia" solution to the crossover, I tried doing the high pass for the HF at 3.5 KHz. Look at the results. The top FR is the wide open L-Pad, and the bottom is pretty much the desired setting. Not bad for beginners, huh?
Zilch, the Low pass is 1.5 Mh and 11.5 Microfarads, while the High pass is 4 Microfarads and .51 Mh. You may want to try duplicating my results.
Since I was playing games searching for the ideal "Altec Valencia" solution to the crossover, I tried doing the high pass for the HF at 3.5 KHz. Look at the results. The top FR is the wide open L-Pad, and the bottom is pretty much the desired setting. Not bad for beginners, huh?
Zilch, the Low pass is 1.5 Mh and 11.5 Microfarads, while the High pass is 4 Microfarads and .51 Mh. You may want to try duplicating my results.
Attachments
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Do you have any links to those? Also would like to see what they look like. Just curious.
Here's a pic of the Seeburg that I built.. with this horn.
Haven't found any published data for them... they've gone through at least three different brand names since I've first started messing with them... but the proof is in the pudding (they WORK!)...
Regards,
Gordon.