Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
I would definitely use the H's. Unless you plan on running more than one driver off of one channel of an amp you probably don't want a 16 ohm woofer like the J. Also as an FYI, I tuned my 2226 to 38Hz in a 4.5 cubic foot enclosure. I would recommend tuning a bit higher as mine are a bit bass lean on the bottom end. Tune to 45Hz or so instead. Good luck!!
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
B&C DE10/ME10 combo?
DE10 ME10
Just because I don't have enough drivers and horns around here I'm considering getting a set of these to fool with. The buy in appears to be about the same as D220Ti/PH612 - about $120/set.
I'm interested because they're only 5" square, which opens up a whole range of experiments with smaller speakers having limited baffle space. This is the first horn that I've found that would fit in a pair of Altec Bolero cabs and apparently go down in the 2K range. The oblique driver orientation might be problematic but I'll have to give that more thought.
Zaph has done some measurements on these.
They look pretty good down to about 2K wit hjust a single cap crossover, though for some reason he says not to do that.
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EDIT
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I found on the HE Forum where the DE10 or DE250 with ME10 is recommended as a replacement for dead 3000G horns in Boleros. A recommended crossover is CLC: 2.2uf/1mh/12uf
Now I have t oget over my reluctance to cut into an Altec cabinet. I have one original and working pair of 890Bs with 3000G horns and another pair of cabs/woofers/passives from which I've stripped the 3000Gs. They're basically paid for but I'm still hesitant to permanently mod something old even if the change is an improvement.
DE10 ME10
Just because I don't have enough drivers and horns around here I'm considering getting a set of these to fool with. The buy in appears to be about the same as D220Ti/PH612 - about $120/set.
I'm interested because they're only 5" square, which opens up a whole range of experiments with smaller speakers having limited baffle space. This is the first horn that I've found that would fit in a pair of Altec Bolero cabs and apparently go down in the 2K range. The oblique driver orientation might be problematic but I'll have to give that more thought.
Zaph has done some measurements on these.
They look pretty good down to about 2K wit hjust a single cap crossover, though for some reason he says not to do that.
***
EDIT
***
I found on the HE Forum where the DE10 or DE250 with ME10 is recommended as a replacement for dead 3000G horns in Boleros. A recommended crossover is CLC: 2.2uf/1mh/12uf
Now I have t oget over my reluctance to cut into an Altec cabinet. I have one original and working pair of 890Bs with 3000G horns and another pair of cabs/woofers/passives from which I've stripped the 3000Gs. They're basically paid for but I'm still hesitant to permanently mod something old even if the change is an improvement.
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rage
Well-Known Member
I received my Dayton classic 10" woofers.
I installed one to compare it with my EPI 10" T/E woofers. The Dayton has clearer midrange by far.
Of course I'll now explain where I screwed up and you guys can laugh at me.
I've run these EPI woofers without an inductor and without the cap connecting the + and - on the woofer crossover for about 3 months now.
I'm guessing I have some overlap of the frequencies (cancellation?) and the EPI doesn't roll off steep at 1800hz like it says on humanspeakers.com web site.
The cap on the woofer is to help the mid range also isn't it?
I'll install the inductor and cap in the EPI e-wave tonight and compare again before installing the dayton in the other cabinet.
Going to run these for a bit while I build front and backs for my barzilay cabinets.
Comparing the woofers physically, the dayton has a larger magnet and voice coil and the suspension seems a bit stiffer on the EPI woofers.
This is fun stuff!
I installed one to compare it with my EPI 10" T/E woofers. The Dayton has clearer midrange by far.
Of course I'll now explain where I screwed up and you guys can laugh at me.
I've run these EPI woofers without an inductor and without the cap connecting the + and - on the woofer crossover for about 3 months now.
I'm guessing I have some overlap of the frequencies (cancellation?) and the EPI doesn't roll off steep at 1800hz like it says on humanspeakers.com web site.
The cap on the woofer is to help the mid range also isn't it?
I'll install the inductor and cap in the EPI e-wave tonight and compare again before installing the dayton in the other cabinet.
Going to run these for a bit while I build front and backs for my barzilay cabinets.
Comparing the woofers physically, the dayton has a larger magnet and voice coil and the suspension seems a bit stiffer on the EPI woofers.
This is fun stuff!
It's about the money, basically. There are plenty of "platforms" for upgrade. Would I hesitate for a minute, even, before hacking a near mint pair of bullnose NLA's? Nope, but I'd want to be real sure of the outcome before taking power tools to good Boleros. I'm working on a repair path for H3000's, also; if I could repair/restore and sell the speakers for more than it costs to buy a pair of the woofers, I can always find/build suitable boxes.
That B&C waveguide looks a bit beamy, but worth a try. Get a pair of these, also, for comparision:
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=179
Now that your RTA is running, we can see whether/what HF comp is required for DE10 on both. I don't think that simple 3rd order is gonna get it done; Zaph didn't, either.
Yes. There aren't many woofers that roll off smoothly, and the crossover has to be designed to take advantage of that, specifically, when available.
Most assuredly so! :thmbsp:
oldskl
Well-Known Member
I am messing with the E-wave with the JBL 2214h in a 1.9ft3 box with 2 ports 2.375x6.0. Things sound good so far but I am using the crossover designed by keggar for the KPM, it uses a Zoebel. The Zoebel does wonders for the HPM woofer so should I try the 2214h without the zoebel or will the zoebel make this woofer better too. Any one is welcome to answer this question.
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Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Okay
I'll order the DE10 and waveguide as soon as some money clears accounts. Zaph's off axis curves for the combo look like -10 db roughly at 30 degrees. That's actually not too bad. The PH612 is better, but it's also 7" wider. The off axis does look very progressive and consistent, which is also important.
The narrower beamwidth makes positioning more critical but that's a cost for small size in most cases.
The little 3000 horn tweeter (.5" dome) is notoriously fragile but I've been lucky that all 4 I've owned were undamaged.
This plot of the DE10/ME10 actually doesn't look that bad to me with just a cap for a crossover. 5dbs covers it from about 2200 hz - 15K. Not too shabby for a first approximation.
I'll order the DE10 and waveguide as soon as some money clears accounts. Zaph's off axis curves for the combo look like -10 db roughly at 30 degrees. That's actually not too bad. The PH612 is better, but it's also 7" wider. The off axis does look very progressive and consistent, which is also important.
The narrower beamwidth makes positioning more critical but that's a cost for small size in most cases.
The little 3000 horn tweeter (.5" dome) is notoriously fragile but I've been lucky that all 4 I've owned were undamaged.
This plot of the DE10/ME10 actually doesn't look that bad to me with just a cap for a crossover. 5dbs covers it from about 2200 hz - 15K. Not too shabby for a first approximation.
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
You're right. -10 db at 30 deg is pretty tight beam width that's in contrast to the wider dispersion of other waveguides. That limits applications. I'm going to get the DE10 anyway to fool with, as I have adapters for various horns. This should be fun. I'll look for a pair of the 18-sound 7" horns as well.
BTW, how do you make that degree symbol?
JKent
Active Member
Lafayette Criterion 5XA E-Wave?
Hi all
I've been intrigued by the E-Wave so when I saw this pair of speakers for $40 I snagged them.
They have nice walnut veneer cabinets and what look to be nice 11" cast-aluminum frame alnico woofers. Made in Japan (in the '60s probably). Can't find any info, beyond a dealer selling a pair of the woofs (described as 12" alnico) and something from BAS suggesting these are pretty efficient (SPL 89 @ 1 watt. 12w required for 100 db). At about 24.5 x 14.25 x 11.5 deep they are a little larger than the AR 2ax.
Thought I would eliminate the mid and tweet to make this a 2-way system with Zilch's xo. But I don't know anything about this woofer. A friend who built a nice E-Wave told me "the E-wave project depends on the woofer's response to approx 1200 to 1500hz. Some woofers, like the AR-3a 12 incher for instance, do not have enough output above 1000hz to be used in the E-wave. In fact, most 12 inch woofers are probably too big for E-wave purposes. Most 10 inchers and below are fine".
This woofer is a nominal 12", actually 11" and I don't know the frequency response. And the odd design with those 4 "ears" for mounting may make swapping woofs tricky. Audioproz had a pair of these woofs for 140/pr but did not speak well of Criterion speakers in general. Am I making a mistake here?
Thanks for any tips!
Kent
Kent
Hi all
I've been intrigued by the E-Wave so when I saw this pair of speakers for $40 I snagged them.
They have nice walnut veneer cabinets and what look to be nice 11" cast-aluminum frame alnico woofers. Made in Japan (in the '60s probably). Can't find any info, beyond a dealer selling a pair of the woofs (described as 12" alnico) and something from BAS suggesting these are pretty efficient (SPL 89 @ 1 watt. 12w required for 100 db). At about 24.5 x 14.25 x 11.5 deep they are a little larger than the AR 2ax.
Thought I would eliminate the mid and tweet to make this a 2-way system with Zilch's xo. But I don't know anything about this woofer. A friend who built a nice E-Wave told me "the E-wave project depends on the woofer's response to approx 1200 to 1500hz. Some woofers, like the AR-3a 12 incher for instance, do not have enough output above 1000hz to be used in the E-wave. In fact, most 12 inch woofers are probably too big for E-wave purposes. Most 10 inchers and below are fine".
This woofer is a nominal 12", actually 11" and I don't know the frequency response. And the odd design with those 4 "ears" for mounting may make swapping woofs tricky. Audioproz had a pair of these woofs for 140/pr but did not speak well of Criterion speakers in general. Am I making a mistake here?
Thanks for any tips!
Kent
Kent
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Alt + 0176
The best way to find out is to do it. Flip them upside down, bring out the woofer leads, connect to the crossovers, set E'Wave on top, and listen. You can do that with just about any "find" to determine how well it will work before committing.
Plenty of projects have been successfully built with 12" and 15" woofers; have a look by clicking the "Projects" link in the first post. Get there by hitting "First" at the top or bottom of this or any other page in the thread.... :yes:
Note: The waveguide is 12" wide. Do you have that much width on the baffle there?
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JKent
Active Member
Thanks Zilch. I'll give it a try. How do I order your xo?
Yes--the cabs are wide enough, but that raises another question: Aren't there other wave guides that would work with a smaller cab, like a KLH 17 or AR 4 (didn't I see some AR 4x spkrs of yours with wave guides?)
Kent
PS DUH--the Model Seventeen linked on the 1st page uses the 7x7 waveguide
Yes--the cabs are wide enough, but that raises another question: Aren't there other wave guides that would work with a smaller cab, like a KLH 17 or AR 4 (didn't I see some AR 4x spkrs of yours with wave guides?)
Kent
PS DUH--the Model Seventeen linked on the 1st page uses the 7x7 waveguide
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The "Official" waveguides are the 12" x 6.5" and 6" x 6". Others are working, or have worked, with 7" x 7", 8" x 8", and ellipticals, 7.75" x 5.75" and 10.25" x 8.5". The Bauhausler's going to try a 5" x 5".
In detail, each of these may require tweaking the HF comp for optimum performance, so we advise those not having the requisite equipment and skills to stick with the documented designs. :yes:
I had a pair of the 4-way version of this cabinet (the Criterion 5XB- adds a supertweeter)... IME, that woofer should work quite well. Seemed to be pretty "fast" (good output up to at least 1KHz). Not a lot of low-bass extension, but good, nicely-defined bass.
I'd say go for it! :thmbsp:
Regards,
Gordon.
oldskl
Well-Known Member
Ok, if any one is interested I removed the Zoebel designed for the HPM woofer and it seemed to my ears to clear up the midrange in the 2214h and there is more midbass out put.I would really like to replicate the bottom end of the 4425 monitor but of course I dont know what the crossover consists of, and Ive never listened to the 4425 so I dont know what it sounds like, Im only speculating that it sounds pretty good.
Russellc
Addicted Member
Go over to Lansing Heritage forum and find the schematic. On the 4430 ( different woofer) I believe its a 7.5 resistor and a 14 uf cap, I'll check when I get home, but I'm sure the 4425 is different.
Russellc
Follow this thread for a link and discussion on the 4425 crossover.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=645&highlight=4425
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Second that. I've owned more conventional horn loaded speakers from the classic era than I can recall. I have experimented with three different modern waveguides and three of the different compression drivers discussed in this thread. In the ewave realm I've built 2 pairs of speakers with the PH612 and Advent components and have experimented with numerous other combos. The PH612/D220Ti combo with the ewave crossover just works great. It measures really well and sounds excellent.
Unless you're willing to do a lot of development work on the crossover and compensation to make another combo work out I'd recommend sticking to the D220Ti/PH612 and ewave crossover.
Like many others here, I have had many horn systems and I think my ear is fairly well tuned to horns and I can tell you that the eWave project is one of the best horn systems I've heard. Stick with what is detailed here and you will not be disappointed,,,then you can play with what ever floats your boat while you're listening to your eWaves.