Damn You AudioKarma.......! ! !

[zenarrrow]

Just flipping through the forum. I just happen to find this topic, Listening Spaces.

Now all of a sudden my listening room isn't good enough....Now all I can think about is how to dampen my room, should I I buy thick curtains...??

I will admit I never gave it much thought...but now it makes sense. Being an obsessive compulsive kind of person. I have to wonder what is the best solution for me.

Please take a look at my system in this thread and maybe give me some pointers....Thanks http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=387745

>>>-----Zen----->

 

[drknstrmyknight]

Just flipping through the forum. I just happen to find this topic, Listening Spaces.

Now all of a sudden my listening room isn't good enough....

HA! Wait 'till you become a subscriber and can access the "Wives and Girlfriends" forum if you think you're miserable now.

 

[AnalogDigit]

Maybe a throw rug would help dampen things up.

 

[Brett a]

Please take a look at my system in this thread and maybe give me some pointers....Thanks http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=387745

>>>-----Zen----->

First of all, you have some nice gear there. I agree with your assessment that you'd benefit from more absorption. I've found that nothing works nearly as well as material that's engineered specifically for acoustic treatment.

ATS is the best/cheapest place I know for DIY as well as built units.
http://www.atsacoustics.com/

That wall space above the computer is achin' for an absorption panel (or similar)

Are those cellular blinds over the big windows? I find my room (link in sig) sounds better with mine drawn.

One thing your room has going for it it diffraction (or is it diffusion). All those built in cabinets are working in your favor by breaking up the reflecting waves.

It doesn't look like you're set up to get a real soundstage are you? If not, does it matter to you?

 

[RevMen]

Tuning a room can make a huge difference. It's a sure way to improve clarity, imaging, and sound stage. It's definitely worth spending at least some time on it.

Big windows can be a real bummer. Light curtains will take off just the very top, leaving you with reflections in the high-mids on down.

Your bookshelves behind your speakers are in a good spot. They'll give you diffusion to break up the back reflection off the speakers. So that's a plus.

If I were you, I would...

-Consider special absorptive curtains, if you've got budget
-Consider a rug. The thicker and fuzzier, the better.
-Consider a ceiling-mounted absorptive panel or two. These can be made inexpensively.

If you have a decent microphone and the ability to hook up your system to your computer, think about running some room measurements using Room EQ Wizard or similar. With complicated surfaces like you have, doing a calculation doesn't give you as reliable a result.

 

[zenarrrow]

It doesn't look like you're set up to get a real soundstage are you? If not, does it matter to you?

Not quite sure what you mean my man...please elaborate.

 

[zenarrrow]

I think I will start with above my PC as one suggested. and maybe a nice throw rug too. (I definitely need a better chair too). Also, suggested ceiling-mounted absorptive panels.

My wife is going to think I have gone mad.

 

[SET12]

Just flipping through the forum. I just happen to find this topic, Listening Spaces.

Now all of a sudden my listening room isn't good enough....Now all I can think about is how to dampen my room, should I I buy thick curtains...??

I will admit I never gave it much thought...but now it makes sense. Being an obsessive compulsive kind of person. I have to wonder what is the best solution for me.

Please take a look at my system in this thread and maybe give me some pointers....Thanks http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=387745

>>>-----Zen----->

Wow! I just discovered this topic myself this morning 4:30am as I can't sleep easily on the weekends working straight nights.

Nice car BTW.

Since you asked, I have to tell you, your equipment setup is nearly one of the worst I have ever seen in my 38yrs of audio and I mean nothing personal. And I'm not necessarily any expert in this field but I'm not extreme either.

I design my own electronics and do speaker modifications to get the most out of them. I'm also into low power high efficiency speakers I have been into vinyl and even scratch designed my phono preamp which is bigger then most peoples power amplifiers. Lets just say that it has likely enough energy reserves to run 20 of your home receivers I saw in your photo's

Setup as a lot of people know can make or break system performance.

Many of us have to compromise with our wives as I have. And some don't have any ability or wouldn't make an effort to negotiate. Or just plain won't move anything and thats to bad because there are huge differences in the way a sound stage can be presented.

I do use some room treatments.

Some times when I have my local audio club at my home for a meeting and listening session I'll optimize the listening room to get more from it.

It looks as though you have a room that you can dedicate to audio to get the most from it. And it looks pretty nice but it does seem very live but thats not necessarily a bad thing if treated. Depending on ones taste.

One method is using a corner tune device. Its usually a triangle that goes in each corner of the ceiling room. These initially from what I understand where developed by a man by the name of Michael Green yrs ago. Many including myself felt that these were perhaps one of the biggest contributors to audio listening rooms. If you put your hands together like a horn and speak into them you will hear the effect that the corner tunes attempt to stop.

Treating primary reflections points will greatly reduce secondary reflections.

One can take a flash light and set it on top of a speaker and another walk along a wall holding a mirror at ear level of the listen who is in his chair. When the mirror gets to the primary reflection point you'll see the flash light. The same can be done with a ceiling.

There just isn't enough time and space to write about this topic.

But I'll mention the serious areas for me.

Before I forget, get the amp off the speaker. Electronics are microphonic even SS ones. Think I'm kidding put a receiver on a sub and listen. then take it off you'll here a smearing of the sounds image. I would also invest in an equipment rack. I don't know as if I like the glass your turntable is on a sheet of thick maple would be better.

One I like a huge sound stage most are tiny to me I prefer life size.

How do I get it?

Well equipment has to be capable of it and not all of it is. And that goes for some expensive stuff as well. But not all people value stage size. Tone is usually first and foremost. But myself I like it all if I can get it. But of course systems are always a compromise. So I have settled for a balance that suits me.

Anyway the biggest thing often is stuff between the speakers. If the sound stage is not capable of getting beyond the outside boundaries of the speakers it often has bigger issues with things between the speakers.

But the main thing for me is symmetrical placement of speakers for a balance presentation of the recorded room ambiance in the recording. It helps other things like bass but overall its balancing the presentation evenly for left and right. That works for me.

In a system like mine that can create images 10 ft left or right of my speakers which are 9 ft apart its very crucial to have this balance otherwise the room cue size or ambiance gets either sucked out of one side when one speaker has a wall nearby and the other speaker is far from a wall or is lopsided. It takes a system with good resolution to capture ambient cue room size details like this which vary from recording to recording.

For me even though I have stuff between my speakers the stage size is so big that I have no issue with the creation of a large stable center image. Often novices that have home theater 5.1 systems ask me where my center channel is and are amused at the lack of one or other stereophonic effects that can be heard projected to the immediate left or right of there seated positions.

Other area's of interests are in bass traps for treating standing waves, standing waves exist in all rooms. But lately I wonder just how much is related to being real standing waves and not peoples speaker Inductors in there crossovers that often produce lumpy undefined bass. I have posted about extensively on a thread of Inductor education over on the Klipsch Corner.

So remember a balanced wall with symmetrical placement. Do experiment on all walls. I do love your wall with the panoramic windows as I like to look out into visualize performers in space. I don't close my eyes I see performers and enjoy the tone.

There is a lot of info on this topic, try not to get to crazy. I hope this gives you a few ideas. But enjoy the music!

SET12

 

[zenarrrow]

Since you asked, I have to tell you, your equipment setup is nearly one of the worst I have ever seen

SET12

Ouch....!!!

That cuts deep.

 

[Brett a]

It doesn't look like you're set up to get a real soundstage are you? If not, does it matter to you?

Not quite sure what you mean my man...please elaborate.

I was wondering if, when you sit and listen, you get clear and defined "pictures" of the instruments in space before you. Do the speakers disappear?

The reason I ask is because room treatments will help toward this end, but you've got to have some soundstage to start with.

AND that may not be important to you. That's also part of my inquiry.

Since you asked, I have to tell you, your equipment setup is nearly one of the worst I have ever seen in my 38yrs of audio and I mean nothing personal.


SET12

Ouch....!!!

That cuts deep.

Yeh, that was a pretty bone-headed thing to say and no doubt an exaggeration. But SET12 did have some useful things to offer.

The "tough love" delivery aside, he did point out two pretty egregious violations of basic hifi set up; glass is probably the worst material to set a turntable on (esp such as nice one) as it resonates quite actively and easily. If you were interested, you could try damping the glass by setting the 'table on a piece of MDF or plywood and see if you don't notice an improvement in the overall sound.

Similarly, equipment set on top of speakers is susceptible to the same type of distortion.

But that's not what you were asking about; you were asking about room damping.

 

[zenarrrow]

Right on, when I bought the TT I thought it so beautiful that to see it from all sides would be ideal. For esthetically reasons. I can replace the wood that I removed.

I will also the amp off the speaker. No excuses, but I recently rebuilt this Seeburg and had these pioneers and another Seeburg amp so I hooked up the amps to them. And just left it on the trial spot. But I can move that off there as well.

Before I set up the 2 extra speakers I di get a real good soundstage. But with the four speakers it is almost a surround type sound. I had the two speakers in front of the bench seat with the backs going into the cubby holes. Maybe I should place all of them there and see if I retain that "stage" effect again as the sound seemed to be coming from the middle space.

 

[zenarrrow]

Please do not get me wrong, I do appreciate SET12's advice and tough love. After all, that is why I asked the question in the first place. I am not that thin skinned....

 

[bobrown14]

Maybe a throw rug would help dampen things up.

Ummm I don't know, better ask the SO about that.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[bobrown14]

Right on, when I bought the TT I thought it so beautiful that to see it from all sides would be ideal. For esthetically reasons. I can replace the wood that I removed.

I will also the amp off the speaker. No excuses, but I recently rebuilt this Seeburg and had these pioneers and another Seeburg amp so I hooked up the amps to them. And just left it on the trial spot. But I can move that off there as well.

Before I set up the 2 extra speakers I di get a real good soundstage. But with the four speakers it is almost a surround type sound. I had the two speakers in front of the bench seat with the backs going into the cubby holes. Maybe I should place all of them there and see if I retain that "stage" effect again as the sound seemed to be coming from the middle space.

You can keep the glass but you should put another shelf with dampening on top of it with TT on top (or glass on top) of the new shelf. If you want to mess around with what sounds best before you toss some coin, try some home brew isolation cups between another shelf. Basically a shelf on top of the glass shelf with isolation in between, could be tennis balls cut in half .. anything to get the TT of the glass that is set in the bookshelf sitting on the floor picking up vibrations. You can thank me later.

It's all good, you can get WAY better sound with what you already have with a few minor changes and 10 bucks a friend and a little "work" moving stuff around till you get it right. Don't put the speakers too close to corners or walls.. go from there... I'd open ALL the windows but that's just the way I do it!

Cheers,

Bob

 

[SET12]

Ouch....!!!

That cuts deep.

As I said nothing personal, but if you want imaging what you have set up is very poor. The room looks as though it capable and the nice thing is its a dedicated room.

I'm less fortunate as I have to share with my wife. But fortunately I have managed to get an enormous sound-stage which is pretty important to me. fortunately the image is not bothered by my flat screen or other things along the same wall. People usually gasp when they hear its width and depth and further can hardly understand why the 10 watts/channel do what they do. I find the larger stage has less issues with things between the speakers.

As I mentioned I prefer long walls and no open ended corners because the ambiance or room cue size of the recording is sucked out and imaging suffers to much for my tastes.

I was wondering if, when you sit and listen, you get clear and defined "pictures" of the instruments in space before you. Do the speakers disappear?

The reason I ask is because room treatments will help toward this end, but you've got to have some soundstage to start with.

AND that may not be important to you. That's also part of my inquiry.


Yeh, that was a pretty bone-headed thing to say and no doubt an exaggeration. But SET12 did have some useful things to offer.

The "tough love" delivery aside, he did point out two pretty egregious violations of basic hifi set up; glass is probably the worst material to set a turntable on (esp such as nice one) as it resonates quite actively and easily. If you were interested, you could try damping the glass by setting the 'table on a piece of MDF or plywood and see if you don't notice an improvement in the overall sound.

Similarly, equipment set on top of speakers is susceptible to the same type of distortion.

But that's not what you were asking about; you were asking about room damping.

I doubt the exaggeration, you make a lot of excellent points.

Its unbelievable how many people treat a good sound system like it was just playing back elevator music. But thats up to the individual I guess.

Have you ever gone to a large audio show? Well IMO only about 20% of the manufactures make an impression on me typically and even in 50-$100,000 rooms it can be disappointing. Often its just setup! Though some gear can be just so so of course.

But before the treatments he has to get the imaging down. Symmetrical wall placement goes a long ways in my book. Its how I can hear 10ft beyond my left and right speakers. Of course gear has to be capable of this and like you said it may or may not be important to the listener.

Imagine a manufacture asking me if I was liking what I heard at a show and I say no! then he ask's whats wrong, and I say you don't want to know and some don't! But I do he say's to his $60,000 setup not to mention the cost of the show. So I told him then I was thanked as he really wanted to know. Certainly the hardest thing to take is criticism, but if you never take any you really don't learn. It took me 3 yrs of designing phono-stages before I could beat a commercially engineered SS with tube design of my own. Many times my buddy shot me down then one day I came with a monster that couldn't be ignored. His satisfaction was like a gold medal, but I wouldn't have gotten there without the tough love.

SET12

 

[Frank Sol]

The book shelving is a PLUS ! All of those jagged edges make for good dampening.

^ I thought I would say something nice

 

[JHS2RT]

HA! Wait 'till you become a subscriber and can access the "Wives and Girlfriends" forum if you think you're miserable now.

Where in the world is that forum? I am a subscriber and have never seen it?

 

[zenarrrow]

So reading this over and over has really got me thinking about what I want to do. I am considering moving my room upstairs to a smaller room. only one small window. A place to build shelves. Is smaller better you guys think? That way I could use some of these dampening ideas without making the room seem weird to house quest's.

The cons of this, to laymen of this hobby (me and my friends, house quests, etc..) this is a quite catchy and drawing area. As the view from this window is amazing with great sound from the beautiful equipment.

but a part of me wants it to be the absolute best sound, and make the changes....Alas. Woe is me....

Haha

 

[SET12]

First off what are your room dimensions for both rooms?

Maybe you could post pictures looking at all 4 walls for both rooms.

And no, small rooms are not the ticket. My own is 14 x 18 with 8 foot ceilings I am set up on a long wall. You can see some of the treatments that I use. When I have my local audio club member's for a meeting I optimize for better sound like this. I have another leather chair on the other side spaced the same distance as the love seats arm is from the corner. My imaging can extend in excess of 10ft to the left and right of each speaker and the sweet spot is wide enough that the 3 people on the sofa still get a wide deep presentation. Also notice the room tunes in the corners, just cup your hands together and speak into them and you'll hear your voice amplified. These allow a room to breath meaning they allow a room to play music even louder than without them. The corner tunes make a good attempt to get rid of the corner effect. Several companies offer such a product or you can make your own even. Mine were a Michael Green product purchased about 20 yrs ago for about $100. The panels I use are by Monster Cable made for studio's and are lead lined. I bought them used for $50/each they were yrs ago $300 each. I have 3 and use them in various ways. In the photo I have to on the front wall and one behind the center listener as I have to sit along the back wall. I often have the 3 panels behind my listening position. Most of the time I have to have a flat panel TV between my speakers, but because I have such a large sound stage. The effects of the flat panel are very minimal. As rule though you really don't want anything between the speakers and preferably to the left or right of them either as it effects lateral imaging.

I prefer long walls for the panoramic imaging that I have, but not every system is capable of this so the center is key for most people.

Also open corners kill good lateral imaging creating a suck out or lopsided image cues for reproduction of the recorded ambiance of the room the performance was recorded in. So no open-ended corners. And be symmetrical with placement as much as you can. Like if you use a long wall each speaker should be the same distance from the left and right side walls. You can experiment with placement of your speakers from the rear wall and distance apart and height of them as well as toe in or toe out. I have friends with expensive systems that do very well with little or no treatments but their setup's are musical.

A big thing is echo slap, clap your hands in a room and listen if you hear an echo for near a second thats like an eternity so you'll have to treat for it possibly a wall tapestry. If you have wood floors, get a throw rug because you'll have echo slap between the ceiling and your floor.

There is a lot more but this is a start.

Cheers

SET12

 

[Freedom]

HA! Wait 'till you become a subscriber and can access the "Wives and Girlfriends" forum if you think you're miserable now.

Okay, where are the "Wives & Girlfriends" forumn located?