Advent modification
- Thread starter Rybeam
- Start date
- Status
geiman
E Wave appellation #49
I think room effects are lessened by having the speakers in free space, and because of that of course better accuracy is achieved. I hope I'm not overstating the obvious. I'm basically into the way music is reproduced in terms of the intent of the musicians and engineers. uAlthough ultimately it is subjective, how it sounds best to me.
To get back on subject, the BSC permits the Advents to be as good as they can be within the limits of it's original design criteria.
They really sound great!
To get back on subject, the BSC permits the Advents to be as good as they can be within the limits of it's original design criteria.
They really sound great!
Thanks for the comments, all I can say is I agree.
Tip Up the High End - Don't Toe In
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2065923&postcount=50
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2065923&postcount=50
archie2
Addicted Member
I dunno. I've had the BSC (4DB) box on 2 sets of Original Large Advents side by side about 2 feet into the room for a few weeks now and I find it depends on the material going in. Shrill trumpets and violins and crashing cymbals sound better with the BSC on but I miss the guttural and breathy sounds of the sax and the sharpness of the snare drums. Some female vocals sound better with it on, some sound better with it off. I agree, it takes some of the harshness out of the Advents but also some of the crispness that I like to hear. So I go back and forth.
Playing simultaneously?
Side-by-side is worse than stacked, even, with respect to phase interference.... :thumbsdn:
archie2
Addicted Member
Both individually and together. When I get the strength I will stack them tweeter to tweeter.:thmbsp:
Biamp requires a crossover.
It's not a crossover problem, rather, an EQ problem.
Can a crossover with suitable compensation built-in be designed?
Yup, and Pete claims to have done that, but won't post it.
If you use the speakers in a manner other than intended, you have to make "adjustments...." :yes:
archie2
Addicted Member
I don't have another Yamaha CR 2020 lying around. I'd love another one. But as Zilch says it's an EQ issue.
I really can't believe how you guys, _think_ you have everything figured out, really Zilch is trolling because I've been ignoring him. I don't ignore out of emotion, I just don't have the time to argue over his imagined view and particularly with people who seem to see this as a contest about who is right or better which makes them fight to the bitter end even when they are wrong.
It's EQ, yes of course it's EQ, WTF did you think it is? You think this is some sort of discovery?
It was originally made simply to provide BSC at line level for another speaker, and I found it "fixed" a problem with the Advents that I've known about for over 30 years. What I stated was that it made a significant improvement IMO. You all know what IMO means right? I also A/Bed it to a pair of expensive high end speakers and you can read about the details in my thread at the CSP.
I think that I've been fairly clear to say that I considered fixing the problem in the crossover, however I don't think I said that it was finished. And why do I have to feel like I'm on trial here? Remember the damn line level thing is free, there's even a loaner. I had intended to do a complex crossover with a switch for classic OLA sound, vs. PLB optimized. I have not done this one, and I'm not holding back - so don't assume Zilch. This is just one reason that you are so difficult to deal with.
I did a quick passive crossover with corrections with my young teen son. I measured the electrical transfer functions and quickly measured the on axis response, I did not do off axis or any detailed measurements. We spent about 2 hours fine tuning by ear. It sounds fantastic, better than our Vandersteen 2 Ci's. However, it is not _complete_ to my standards so why should I post it here and have a curve freak like Zilch shoot it down? Probably without even hearing it, and seriously waste my time as he has in this thread. I don't really care if Zilch or anyone else shoots it down, however I do care about wasting my time. My own Advent collection is not finished, and those are not my only projects.
I have had others insist that against the wall was true 2pi loading as Zilch has here. I have shown here that it is not, but this has been ignored by a certain member who likes to harass as if this is a competition:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/hbl_opt.gif
I called the compensation BSC because that is roughly what the curve is, most people would not understand a more complex explanation for why it works as well as it does. If you really think that against a wall in room is 2pi, then you've been reading too much marketing literature and believing it.
I really dislike these confrontational back and forths, such a waste of time. Make no assumptions people, ask before you jump to conclusions.
It's EQ, yes of course it's EQ, WTF did you think it is? You think this is some sort of discovery?
It was originally made simply to provide BSC at line level for another speaker, and I found it "fixed" a problem with the Advents that I've known about for over 30 years. What I stated was that it made a significant improvement IMO. You all know what IMO means right? I also A/Bed it to a pair of expensive high end speakers and you can read about the details in my thread at the CSP.
I think that I've been fairly clear to say that I considered fixing the problem in the crossover, however I don't think I said that it was finished. And why do I have to feel like I'm on trial here? Remember the damn line level thing is free, there's even a loaner. I had intended to do a complex crossover with a switch for classic OLA sound, vs. PLB optimized. I have not done this one, and I'm not holding back - so don't assume Zilch. This is just one reason that you are so difficult to deal with.
I did a quick passive crossover with corrections with my young teen son. I measured the electrical transfer functions and quickly measured the on axis response, I did not do off axis or any detailed measurements. We spent about 2 hours fine tuning by ear. It sounds fantastic, better than our Vandersteen 2 Ci's. However, it is not _complete_ to my standards so why should I post it here and have a curve freak like Zilch shoot it down? Probably without even hearing it, and seriously waste my time as he has in this thread. I don't really care if Zilch or anyone else shoots it down, however I do care about wasting my time. My own Advent collection is not finished, and those are not my only projects.
I have had others insist that against the wall was true 2pi loading as Zilch has here. I have shown here that it is not, but this has been ignored by a certain member who likes to harass as if this is a competition:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/hbl_opt.gif
I called the compensation BSC because that is roughly what the curve is, most people would not understand a more complex explanation for why it works as well as it does. If you really think that against a wall in room is 2pi, then you've been reading too much marketing literature and believing it.
I really dislike these confrontational back and forths, such a waste of time. Make no assumptions people, ask before you jump to conclusions.
I'll try to gently offer my opinion here. I use my teen sons to help compare because they have young ears and I sometimes wonder if they might hear to 20 kHz for example. My oldest used to sit on my lap when he was about 3 years old and like to click the A/B switch so he's been a critical listener for many years LOL. He also loves music more than the gear. He knows that our big reference system is good so when we A/Bed against the unmodified OLA, I didn't have to say anything his immediate reaction was what's wrong with those speakers (the OLAs). Night and day difference in favor of our reference. There was one cut that he liked better on the OLA's it was EC playing a loud, distorted, electric guitar solo and the stock OLA pushed that screaming guitar even more in your face. I said to him, knowing that the reference is more accurate on all the other material, and I agree that EC sounds closer on the OLA which do you think is more accurate, and which would you want to live with? He got it right away, no further explanation needed. My son plays electric quitar by the way. I don't know what else to say, some music and recordings might sound "enhanced" by the OLA stock curve, but I'd never call it accurate, or natural. There are many bad recordings out there but most are bright and forward so I'm not sure I'd ever have a preference for the stock OLA curve, perhaps a very rare few. Thanks for your comments.
I probably should mention that I don't use Advents in any of my main listening systems as I have much better designs of my own and a few commercial systems. I am simply collecting them for historical reasons. My kids have Advent/1s on their play room TV, and my other son practices his synth drums through them. They are excellent for this by the way. I'd probably want to run a 2X2 or more stack if he ever played out with them, but he has real drums for that anyway.
Pete B.
I work with handicapped people and we always say our motto should be, "No good deed goes unpunished".
I think the same goes for your efforts.
I have a pair of Advent/1's and they were what I would describe as very open but bright at the same time.
I love them and have altered their sound with some equalization that is built into my receiver that I didn't even know it was their. If all else fails reading the manual and now they sound fantastic, to me at least. And that's all that matters.
I read how people say bi-amping is really good, which is something I would like to explore if I can pick up another amp cheap on CL.
The sound of the Advents is very appealing to me, it may not be accurate but how many speakers are?
JBL's are not known for their accuracy but then again it depends on what type of music you listen too. If the recording studio used JBL's then they may be.
Speakers are a mechanical device connected to an electrical signal which is a recipe for disaster for a start.
When I first started posting on here I had just bought a pair of Insignias from Best Buy and Zilch quickly shot them down saying "his" Indignias would kill them. Well it would have cost me about double what I paid for my Insignias. So it wasn't an option as I don't have the time or tools to build something like that.
My Advents cost less than the Insignias and sound so warm and open, I get home from work and sit back and listen to different music on them and lose myself in the process.
And that's what it's all about.
Zilch can have his measurements and preen his ego all he wants because as Tommy Lee Jones said, "I don't care!".
"Bottom line: They're not all what thrift store scroungers make them out to be, stacked or not, and yeah, they can be made into something else, better. So what?" - Zilch
I work with handicapped people and we always say our motto should be, "No good deed goes unpunished".
I think the same goes for your efforts.
I have a pair of Advent/1's and they were what I would describe as very open but bright at the same time.
I love them and have altered their sound with some equalization that is built into my receiver that I didn't even know it was their. If all else fails reading the manual and now they sound fantastic, to me at least. And that's all that matters.
I read how people say bi-amping is really good, which is something I would like to explore if I can pick up another amp cheap on CL.
The sound of the Advents is very appealing to me, it may not be accurate but how many speakers are?
JBL's are not known for their accuracy but then again it depends on what type of music you listen too. If the recording studio used JBL's then they may be.
Speakers are a mechanical device connected to an electrical signal which is a recipe for disaster for a start.
When I first started posting on here I had just bought a pair of Insignias from Best Buy and Zilch quickly shot them down saying "his" Indignias would kill them. Well it would have cost me about double what I paid for my Insignias. So it wasn't an option as I don't have the time or tools to build something like that.
My Advents cost less than the Insignias and sound so warm and open, I get home from work and sit back and listen to different music on them and lose myself in the process.
And that's what it's all about.
Zilch can have his measurements and preen his ego all he wants because as Tommy Lee Jones said, "I don't care!".
"Bottom line: They're not all what thrift store scroungers make them out to be, stacked or not, and yeah, they can be made into something else, better. So what?" - Zilch
Thanks for your comments. I only quickly worked on our Advent/1s but as I recall they have a 2.5 ohm resistor to the tweeter which is the decrease position on NLAs. The smaller box raises the Q of the woofer response which adds some lift above resonance for a bit more BSC. The extra padding on the tweeter, and this lift make it a much better balanced speaker. The NLA on decrease is also a better balanced speaker.
The OLA does not have a useful decrease position because it uses an inductor and essentially filters the high end whereas the NLA and /1 are shelved down.
You've got EQ so you can dial in whatever balance you prefer.
Biamping is fine, however more power is also a good solution. 200W/ch is not unreasonable.
Against all speakers out there the LA family are an excellent buy, a fantastic tag sale find, better than let's say 90-95% of the affordable home vintage speakers out there. With BSC they're beter than 98% of the vintage speakers out there IMO.
Again thanks for your comments.
The OLA does not have a useful decrease position because it uses an inductor and essentially filters the high end whereas the NLA and /1 are shelved down.
You've got EQ so you can dial in whatever balance you prefer.
Biamping is fine, however more power is also a good solution. 200W/ch is not unreasonable.
Against all speakers out there the LA family are an excellent buy, a fantastic tag sale find, better than let's say 90-95% of the affordable home vintage speakers out there. With BSC they're beter than 98% of the vintage speakers out there IMO.
Again thanks for your comments.
You asked, I answered; there were plenty of other members telling you how how good the Best Buy Insignias were:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=177443
Seems like, ultimately, you agreed with me, actually:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178571
[You're welcome....
]You have highlighted the one point regarding Advents upon which Pete and I are apparently in substantial agreement here, except that he finds them rather worse than I do.
[You're beatin' up on the wrong guy....
: ]
I appreciate the fact that you share your work, but if you are going to use it to make a point I am certainly going to comment about the validity.... :yes:
Where I stand, if I'm going to make an assertion and have a hypothesis, I have to be able to back it up with data, or it becomes null. Doesn't mean I'm on trial, just if I'm going to state something as fact, I'll have to back that up with something. While I don't always agree with what Zilch says (love my big old nasty-measuring Altecs no matter what! 
), I do respect the amount of time and effort that he puts into his analysis, and the obvious passion that he has for the dark art of speaker design. He is to be commended as well for the efforts that he and some of the others here put into a few of the DIY designs popular here on AK.
Zilch is many things, but a troll ain't one of 'em. We should all remember the AK motto before throwing names around here. Advents are fine for what they are, but if people own them and think they are lacking, perhaps it's just time to move on to another speaker...
), I do respect the amount of time and effort that he puts into his analysis, and the obvious passion that he has for the dark art of speaker design. He is to be commended as well for the efforts that he and some of the others here put into a few of the DIY designs popular here on AK. Zilch is many things, but a troll ain't one of 'em. We should all remember the AK motto before throwing names around here. Advents are fine for what they are, but if people own them and think they are lacking, perhaps it's just time to move on to another speaker...
Quoted as a suggestion from your friendly neighborhood moderator.
archie2
Addicted Member
I think this thread has been very civil. Gentleman's disagreement flavor but not offensive. I have read and participated with interest.
I found the strength to restack my OLA's tweeter to tweeter on 16 inch stands. A bit high for my liking but if after listening to them for a while I decide to keep them stacked I'll make a lower platform. In a word, they sound better than a single pair, much better dispersion, more resonant, fuller sound and somewhat deeper bass. I don't hear the phase interference problem cited by Zilch although in fairness I wouldn't recognize it if I was hearing it. Running them through the 4 db BSC contracts the soundfield somewhat but makes the speakers disappear to a greater degree. The BSC box is an option but I don't use it all the time. When I run the stacked Advents through my Hughes AK 100 the sound really opens up and creates an excellent sound stage envelope to the right arcing to the left of the speakers. Not true surround sound but a shooter. Having said all this my Polks 10A's and Spica TC 60's are still my preferred speakers but I truly like these stacked Advents, especially run through the AK 100.
- Status