1963 FISHER DIPLOMAT D38...I want one but...

[ODYOFAEL]

What cartridge was in it and what did you replace it with. It's normal to have to "crank up the volume" some when playing LP's due to the low input voltage of the phono stage, (single digit millivolts) vs. the "line level or Radio inputs (100's of millivolts). As for the treble being cranked it's probably because of the rest of the preamp that hasn't been recapped. Phono adds a whole Gain section to get approx the same input at the tone control section (not totally the same but close) that the AUX, and Tape Monitor inputs don't have. Also did you change C72 and 73 (.01uf/500v)ceramic? At least check them for value. If low or high change them out.

If you have a outboard phono preamp, try it. Plug it in to the AUX RCA's and the turntable to the preamp. Set the Control panel to AUx and play a LP. If there is an increase in sound levels with attendant reduction in treble use, then the phono section has a problem.

You may have to go with a HIGH OUTPUT Magnetic cartridge with the Type "A". All of my 60's FISHER consoles (see signature) came with a FISHER BRANDED variation of the PICKERING V15 (V15F) or ATE cartridge. These have an output of between 4 to 6 mv. I have tried the STANTON 500V.3 and the now NLA 400V.3. The 400V.3 can be had still on EBAY. It's output is 10mv, and you hear everything. When I say everything I mean EVERYTHING. Motor vibrations from worn motor mounts, idler offcenter, idler pits, bumps and bearing noise on the platter. Once you get past those the 400V.3 is a decent cartridge. It's best on a direct drive or a belt drive, but it can be used on a idler that has been worked on to minimize the noise leaks.

You can get conicals, ellipticals, and JICO SHibata styli for the V15 which the 400V.3 is the modern version of. the 500V.3 is slightly lower in output (about7 to 8mv IIRC) but it's not so sensitive to noise leaks from the turntable.

I'd go ahead and recap the rest fo the preamp, and the amp. Then work on the turntable (clean and relube, new motor mounts, idler wheel, and rewire the tonearm. This will correct 99% of the problems with the turntable. The other 1% is figuring out what cartridge works well in your situation. I tend to stick with the 400V.3 or 500V.3 with the FISHER's.

Larry

P.S. If you don't have the owners manual, get the one for the F-59 (1964 FUTURA V) It uses the same AMP and PREAMP/TUNER, controls are the same. www.fisherconsoles.com.

Larry

thanks Larry. I'll go ahead and use my outboard phono pre and hear what happens.

No I have not replaced C72,73. I'll change then tomorrow.

I ordered a a SHURE SC35, it will be arriving here by Tuesday.

I have a question about the recapping. Can I replace the ceramic caps with mylars. Can I replace ALL caps with Mylar caps?

 

[walyfd]

Take it one step at a time. I know it's hard, but...

As for the difference in phono and radio output: I believe there are level set controls on the amp to adjust your phono to the radio. They are most likely still in their original settings. Mark them with a marker or paint daub and then turn them to match the radio output. Really, anything you do right now can and probably will change after a recap. Swapping cartridges will alter things, too.

I actually have my phono set a notch higher than the MPX. And, I could be off-base, but I recapped mine over the winter and, as everything is getting "broken in", I think it's time to readjust the level sets...

Relax and enjoy the journey--you'll get there!

As for the capping advice--I'll leave that to the real experts but the polarized electros need to be replaced with electros of the same or close values. Ceramics can be replaced with mylars. Generally, the disc capacitors don't go bad. There's a lot of info on the net about recapping. Listen to the experts HERE first! And I'm not one...

 

[larryderouin]

Sorry taking so long to answer. As to Walyfd's comments above.
1.) The level pots seen on integrateds are not used on the consoles. So there is no phono or tape level pots on the back.

2.) .1 to 1uf electroytics can be replaced with electrolytics, but also film capacitors. Panasonic ECQ or Cornell Dublier DME are good all around caps.

Otherwise with regard to the caps he's right on. I'd leave the ceramics alone. FISHER used a better ceramic cap than normally seen. Also with regard to the MYLAR's test them for value and leakage. If on in value and NOT leaking, leave them in. If leaking or out of spec, use whatever you want in a FILM CAP of the same value and a higher voltage. By leaking I mean AC voltage riding on the DC signal.

You can use radials for axials and vice versa. It'll look ackward, but works. Especially if you need a low noise cap and the only one comes in Radial. Just extend the leads (and cover with a length of heatshrink tubing.) by "J" hooking, and soldering.

I use Nichicon UPW or other LOW IMPEDANCE series for Power supplies and non signal path caps, and UKL or other low leakage series for signal caps (electrolytics). The so called "AUDIO" caps are mostly hype as far as the FISHER is concerned. UFW and UKW(nichicon's audio caps) are generally 85*C rated that I've found. Rated life is shorter and ripple is higher. You want 105*C as much as possible with as high a life rating in hours as you can get with as low a ripple as possible. THis is where the data sheets come in handy.


As for the SC35C. This is a DJ Cartridge, designed for scratching and mixing. Tracking weight 4-6grams. You can do better with a Stanton 500V.3 and track between 2-3grams on the Type "A" table. But take a listen to the SC35C. You may find it's what you want. I couldn't find an output voltage on it, but it''s probably around 5mv whereas the 500V.3 does 6mv IIRC.

 

[ODYOFAEL]

Update

I replaced C72,73 ceramic discs caps with mylars yesterday. installed the SHURE SC35 that arrived yesterday as well but didn't have a chance to hear it. Today, the idler wheel arrived fro Gary of VM.

Well, I don't know which of the things I did made a fifference but it sure did. It's very audible. I am getting highs now but still have to crank the treble conrol to about 3 oclock setting. The highs are better now.

HUMMMMM
Im getting a small amount of hum that I can hear 10 to 12 feet away from the unit, that is when the volume is at around 11 oclock setting. The hum is audible on all sections, AUX, TAPE, RADIO...

No hum when the volume is way down. :scratch2:
What could cause this?

This weekend Ill be buying some electrolytic caps for the tuner and parts for the amp section as well. I have the heat tranfer grease for the transistors ready too.

BTW, Im off to San Diego this Saturday to Pickup the 63 Diplomat.:thmbsp:

 

[larryderouin]

Cranking the Treble to about 3:00 is ffairly normal with the consoles to get a good bit of boosted highs. Consoles sound different than components in that they are heavily biased to bass and mids. Out of the 13-14 consoles I have that doesn't have to be cranked on the treble is my 67' Magnavox and that's due to the horn's it has. I have to turn the treble all the way down to get a livable level. any more than that and it becomes screechy and unbearable.

 

[ODYOFAEL]

Cranking the Treble to about 3:00 is ffairly normal with the consoles to get a good bit of boosted highs. Consoles sound different than components in that they are heavily biased to bass and mids. Out of the 13-14 consoles I have that doesn't have to be cranked on the treble is my 67' Magnavox and that's due to the horn's it has. I have to turn the treble all the way down to get a livable level. any more than that and it becomes screechy and unbearable.

If thats normal then I guess all is good. There is one thing I noticed though when switching or listening to mono. The right chanel is sounding a bit nasal. The left side is better sounding and I get good mids and highs. I tried switching the phono tubes and also the EL80 tubes from left to right and getting the same result. What could cause this?

 

[larryderouin]

Unless you have a parts room handy and can do it all in a day, it's gonna be a journey to get the ambassador and the diplomat's back up to original spec. You've got 50 year old parts it sounds like you expect to work like new. They won't, period! Caps dry out, resistors go high or low, tubes wear out. Like WALYFD said, take it slow. And I agree 100% on these especially the hybrids. One "aw ****" in the amp, and it's gonna cost you "BIG TIME!" as the outputs are germanium and very expensive compared to silicon transistors. There are 8 of them and generally when one goes out you replace 4 (per side) as they are seriesed or piggybacked on each other electrically.

Most of the problems you are noting are in the PREAMP. Leave the amp alone for now. The only thing you should do on the amp is to check the tubes. As all 3 are DUAL tubes, check the values side to side. If they are imbalanced in the tube, then you'll get drop in volume, tone, etc. BUT!!!! The amp tubes are DRIVERS, NOT OUTPUT's.

You can test the amp separately by disconnecting the RCA's at the amp and plugging in another preamp and checking the amp. (make sure the preamp has a volume control!!!) But like I said above MOST of the problems are in the preamp. Replace the capacitors (including the can's on the amp and the other power supply caps) in the preamp, power resistors with higher wattage resistors, and check ALL of the Carbon Composition resistors for value (which means in most all cases on these removing one end from a connection so it's out of circuit.). It's slow, tedious, and boring. BUT it's the only way to get it to work right.

Once you get that done, you do a test run and check all points on the preamp and amp on the schematic that there is a voltage for it. If it's within 5% it's ok. If not, then you have to figure out why it isn't.

Reflowing solder points is also a good idea. These amps do run very warm, and for extended cycles, with little or no ventilation. Ventilation design was not a primary concern (IMO), so anything you do to increase it is helpful.

 

[walyfd]

We can all relate to the excitement, but it took time for Dr. Frankenstein to build his monster--from parts that hadn't been exercised for a long time. You can't wake up from a 6-month coma and run a marathon. You can't pull a car out of a barn after 30 years, turn the key and drive cross country.

And, if you happen to have my luck, you'll fix one thing and break something else...

If you get frustrated, STOP! Walk away. Go back a day, week or whatever later.

Most importantly--HAVE FUN! Right now, I'm po'd with my 500 and haven't looked at it in a few days. It'll still be broken when I go back, but maybe I'll see what I did wrong...

 

[ODYOFAEL]

Thanks much guys, I'm actually taking my time and doing it slowly. I'll be taking care of the amp section before something serious happens.

I just got back from San Diego, Ca and finally got my hands on the supposedly "Not working" 1963 Diplomat. So I checked all the tubes and installed them back. I took them out before the trip back. I kinda exercised ll the controls and then plugged it in. I let it sit for a minute trying to listen to any hum and checked if the tubes were glowing.

I didn't hear any hum or any weird noise nd all tube were getting warm. Switched to FM and set the dial to 88.1 and praying before turning the volume. To my surprise, it was working. The dial light were both busted that's probably why the seller thought it was dead. The sound was so clean and lively with no distortion.

After about 10 minutes I cranked the volume and man is this thing loud. I heard from other members that the DIplomat has low output and will not play loud. Have you tried listening to a 1963 Diplomat? It is louder than I thought. I am actually liking the sound of this little unit compared to the Ambassdor.

I don't really mind if it doesn't have a separate amp. The only thing is if I want to replace the Garrard AT6 with abetter A70 or a Lab 80 (arriving Neva week),it might not fit.

Dilemma. Which one tolet go? I can only keep one.:scratch2:

 

[larryderouin]

If you want to replace the TT, pull the whole panel it's sitting on. FISHER usually screwed down the panel from the top (8 screws on the perimeter). Make another panel to match the new turntable pattern, and the cutout of the unit, and drop in. I've made panels for my FUTURA and Custom Electra's to take Miracord 10's and 50H's, DUAL 1009's and Garrard Zero 100's. Then it's just a matter of unscrewing the panel, lifting it out, unplugging it all, and reversing it for the new turntable. I need to do this with my Executive. When setting the template on the new wood, note the spindle center on the template and lay an old LP on it to ensure it clears the edge of the wood by at least 1/4". Which means with the Lab 80 you'll have to move it forward and right to clear a bit.

I'd hold off on getting rid of one just yet. Neither is up to snuff yet and you haven't heard them at 100% operational spec. Fix them both up and THEN decide. I've been trying to decide which of the 14 I have here in the house to sell for 5 years and STILL haven't decided.

 

[ODYOFAEL]

If you want to replace the TT, pull the whole panel it's sitting on. FISHER usually screwed down the panel from the top (8 screws on the perimeter). Make another panel to match the new turntable pattern, and the cutout of the unit, and drop in. I've made panels for my FUTURA and Custom Electra's to take Miracord 10's and 50H's, DUAL 1009's and Garrard Zero 100's. Then it's just a matter of unscrewing the panel, lifting it out, unplugging it all, and reversing it for the new turntable. I need to do this with my Executive. When setting the template on the new wood, note the spindle center on the template and lay an old LP on it to ensure it clears the edge of the wood by at least 1/4". Which means with the Lab 80 you'll have to move it forward and right to clear a bit.

I'd hold off on getting rid of one just yet. Neither is up to snuff yet and you haven't heard them at 100% operational spec. Fix them both up and THEN decide. I've been trying to decide which of the 14 I have here in the house to sell for 5 years and STILL haven't decided.

I just grabbed the tape measure and the only changer that will fit is the AT6 on the Diplomat. If you try installing a type A, the counter weight will hit the back side, the front side of theTT will be kissing the front side of the cabinet. No can do. Even if I like the way it looks and it sounds, I'll stick with the Ambassador. Unless I find an Ambassador with a Modern cabinet, that's the only time I'll let go of the A69.

 

[ODYOFAEL]

Update

I finished recapping the tuner section as per Larry and the other great guys. It well...because it didn't blow up. lol

I started on the power amp section and have finished 75% of it. I have not touched the resistors yet. Im gonna do them once I have all the resistors. Today im doing the transitors (silicone grease), diodes and the last one...the two single section can caps (330:scratch2:

 

[larryderouin]

The Main caps are series'ed to work as a voltage doubler. As they are insulated the outer (-) NEG leads ARE NOT grounded to the chassis. Also the Neg on the left is connected to the (+)POS on the RIGHT. You need a Terminal strip attached on the side and connect the caps there. DO NOT USE THE GROUND TERMINAL ON THE STRIP!!!! Do one cap at a time, and wire them up as shown originally. You'll need to extend a couple of the leads but no real problem there.

Drill a small hole (just large enough for a 4x40 1/2" screw, washer, nut plus the terminal strip) on the side of the chassis. Assemble and Tighten down. Figure out your wiring from the can's and extend that to the terminal strip (one can at a time), plus extend the negative side of the 1st cap over to the POSITIVE side of the 2nd cap. Extend the original wiring of the 2nd cap to the terminal strip. Don't forget the replacement caps while you are doing this.

It's not hard, just not that intuitive. Sit down and work it out on paper 1st, and go thru it a few times(dry runs). When you feel comfortable with the wiring, set it up.

Larry

 

[quadaptor]

Man, I would be all over that 100-buck Diplomat like ugly on an ape. I'm not a fan of light wood, but it certainly has a nice mod 50s/60s style. It also looks like somebody stripped off the finish. I have a 63 Futura Modern and I'm not so sure its really made of walnut. Its probably the same wood as your Diplomat, but stained walnut. Leave the amp alone and enjoy it for what it iz. Consoles really do have a lot of compromises, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy them for what they are, and as they are.