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1979 Sansui Au-717 / TU-717

Thank you Percivilla for making a comparison for me. I’m down to buy a DAC, if needed. It’s just the price and features that has me mystified. The prices are all over the board and I’m just lost.

I’m fairly sure a dongle splitter can be had that lets the ipad run to a DAC (or amp in my case since I have no DAC) and to a wall charger. But yeah my new iPhone 13’s charge lasts forever…
 
Have you tried the DAC in the ipad yet? I'd test that out if I were you. DAC's are no mystery, and there are lots of excellent DACs for not too much money. But try the build in DAC in your ipad first. The 3.5mm mini-plug to RCA out jacks are cheap.
 
Knucklehead, I have a brand new iPad via lightning connector to RCA jacks to the aux on my 717. It sounds fantastic. I think. I also tried my new iPhone 13 Pro Max via the same cable. It sounds just as good. I’ll have to borrow a nice DAC though and see if it’s any better which is what Percivilla is doing for me ;). My AR9 speakers deserve the best but don’t know if I even need a DAC and if I do, which one.

The media I’m using right now is via my personal music library on my local Plex server fronted by the iOS Plex app. My songs are ripped at CD quality 44.1/16 bit resolution using an mp3 container. I’m tired of purchasing CDs so am moving on to a music provider. But that’s another story.
 
Try ripping a few of your CD's to FLAC format and to your MP3 files. The difference will be noticed most easily on dynamic music, classical, hard rock, and jazz, etc. I have some music I ripped to MP3 at 128 and 256mbps bit rates. That was back when a 6gb thumb drive wasn't cheap. The more mellow the music the better it sounds. Some of the dynamic music doesn't sound so good. I've since redone those albums, making it 312mbps for car audio, and FLAC for playing in my living room. Yeah it takes time but the results are worth it IMO.

I'm not sure what DACs are adaptable to an ipad or iphone. For the back room I use my laptop with an Emotiva Big Ego. Decent sounding DAC IMO. Prior to the Big Ego I used a Behringer UCA222 DAC. I've never compared the two directly but there isn't a big difference between them. The BIg Ego seems to have better highs. Other than that the biggest difference is in their cost. I paid $80 for a factory refreshed Big Ego, half the asking price for new. The Berhinger was only $25 or so shipped.

I have the Emo XDA-2 in the living room, using it ATM listening to the Moody Blues through the 717, It sounds just grand, of course! And no sub needed with the Salk speakers.
 
Great idea, knuckle. Will try tomorrow. I did not know you could up-convert an original music CD.

And wow, I thought you needed to spend $300-$1000 for a reasonable DAC.
 
I did an experiment. I have Piece of Mind from Boston’s 1976 album Boston already ripped at 160kbps mp3. I took the same CD and ripped it to flac at the highest quality that the Linux software abcde will produce and yielded a 44.1kHz/16 bit FLAC. I pushed it to my local Plex library. I then listened to both files through the Plex app (Plexamp specifically) on my iPhone 13 Pro (latest model) via the built in speakers for a comparison. The flac may seem a little more open in the highs (horns, guitar, tambourine) but overall really the same with this loud rock song.

i plugged the phone’s lightning connector to the two RCA jacks (via one cable with these form factors on either end) in the 717 connected to my two AR9s. I compared without the muting switch at mild to absurd listening levels. The flac does yield more of those various highs based on my butt dyno or it could be a placebo effect. It ain’t much different really.

I repeated the test with Led Zeppelin’s Black Dog from Zeppelin IV, 1971, and honestly got the same result. The original mp3 was at a 256kbps bit rate so slightly better but overall the same quality in the end between my iPhone speakers and my AR9s.

in terms of file size, the flac file is 7x the size of the mp3 described here so a nine song album would be 280 MB vs 45 MB.

And yes I know that 16 bit is nowhere near 24 bit but I have no means it seems to yield hi res from an original retail audio CD which makes sense.

I ordered the Behringer U-Control UCA222 DAC from Amazon today for $18 shipped. Thx knucklehead;). Can’t go wrong with the price. I also bought Apple’s official ‘lightning to usb 3.0 camera adapter’ dongle. Should be here in a few days. I’ll then see if I can perceive any major differences to the AR9s. From the web, even the mighty iPhone 13 Pro requires a DAC, so they claim, to realize high res audio quality either through headphones or to an amplifier.

Either way I pulled the trigger and subscribed to Apple Music which I have learned has converted all, or by now most, of its 7MM songs to hi res. Family plan is $15 and we’re already iPhone fans.
 
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I also just picked up a one owner 1976 Dual 601 turntable, belt drive, for free. It does not auto-return at the end of the vinyl but does lift the arm, halt there, and not turn off. Needs a stylus too. Will get it fixed or try a repair myself maybe. Beautiful unit. It’ll replace my beat up early 80s KD291 Kenwood.
 
That Behringer DAC won't win any awards or cause audiophiles to wet all over themselves listening to it, but it does a decent job. I've been using one for 5-6 years, forgot when I bought it. I keep replacing it, but keep going back to it when a more expensive DAC gives me trouble.

If you do a comparison of your iphone's internal DAC and the Behringer post your impressions. You may find the differences between the MP3 and FLAC is a wider gulf than you thought.

Nice score on the TT. My Marantz TT42 almost dies before returning the tone arm to it's rest. I wonder how long it'll be before it just can't quite make it. That Dual probably just needs to be cleaned and lubed.
 
Holy moly, Batman! Here’s the experiment’s result.

I received the Behringer DAC from Amazon today as noted a few posts up. From my iPhone 13 Pro Max. Ive got the official Apple media dongle as noted above, out to this Behringer via its USB connection, then into the AU-717 via a high quality gold plated RCA cable. Keep in mind this is an $18, shipped, DAC.

All tests were from media files streamed over the web. I’ve got a fast Internet connection with an overkill router and modem separates. All tests were a butt dyno from me and another audiophile from my 717 out to my Teledyne Acoustic Research AR9 towers.

I also subscribed to Apple Music a couple days ago who has claimed to have converted most of its music. Worst case, it’s tracks are in ALAC, Apple’s lossless format or hi res. Since my cheap DAC cannot tell me the metadata about the audio stream I cannot say for sure what quality format the high res files are in but it’s 24 bit and between 48-192khz. I know some DAC’s will display 24 bit-160khz etc to prove to you what is being received. Further, some tracks are in high res Dolby digital. The Apple Music app does tell you if the album or track is lossless, hi res, if the album was converted from a master, and if it’s in Dolby Digital. Apple Music also lets you determine what quality you get while on WiFi and what quality you get when on cellular via your settings. The bandwidth difference is huge. A typical high res 2.5 min track is 165 MB. So, regardless of the track Ive added to my library, the system plays the track at the highest quality it has on hand that I have specified in my settings. I’ve got unlimited data from my ISP so not worried about it.

1. DAC removed; play mp3 256kbps file.
Result: It sounded good to me. Been using this setup for a while. I was more than happy.

2. DAC removed; play flac 44.1khz/16 bit file.
Result: I cannot perceive a difference, a bit more volume perhaps.

3. DAC enabled; play mp3 256kbps file.
Result: Much improved sound quality, more highs clarity. I guess the built in iPhone DAC isn’t enough for basic mp3s. I’d say my cheap DAC wins. Read on.

4. DAC enabled; play flac 44.1khz/16 bit file.
Result: improved highs, broader and louder sound at the same volume level. Impressive difference. It’s like the bass and treble were turned up.

5. DAC enabled; Apple Music; play lossless file.
Result: large improvement; I cannot believe what I was missing. At the same medium volume level, the lows and highs are much clearer, more bass, you can hear the horns and tambourines. The left and right channels have observable clarity.

6. DAC enabled; Apple Music; play hi res file.
Result: this is unbelievable. First, I tried this without this DAC and it’s not nearly as good. There is so much action going on, the sound stage is just impressive and wide, you can feel the singers voice, you can make out individual instruments. Crank the volume five clicks and it’s like a live concert. I never realized what I was missing. The bass punch is fuller, you can hear the pitch difference in the highs like the snare drum and high hat. The mid bass is more prominent; you can make out notes on an upright bass or cello for instance.

7. DAC enabled; listen to Let’s Get It On by Marvin Gaye in high res with Dolby digital on Apple Music. This is over the top incredible. The sound is everywhere. Just beautiful. I cannot believe what digital enhancements can do. Had no clue.

is there a difference with a DAC? Yes. Mind blown.
 
Off topic here, but I actually got a one owner 1979 Dual CS-522 turntable. Not the 601 I noted earlier. What a beaut! Easy to fully service. Bought the infamous steuerpimpel rubber guide bushing to repair the auto functions. Works like new now. Replaced the RCA cable. Need to replace its Ortofon DN155E stylus but this unit sounds so much better than my kenwood turntable of the same era to my Sansui AU-717. Amazing sound.
 

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Just want to get this on the record for any future audiokarmans who might be confused about integrating their Lightning port equipped iPads and iPhones into their system and whether or not they need to buy a DAC to do so.

Current iPads and iPhones don't have a built-in DAC for audio output. Yes, of course they have a DAC for the built in speakers but I mean for output output. Fortunately, for $9 they offer possibly the screamin'-est deal in DACs: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35-mm-headphone-jack-adapter

icX8DhO.jpg

Yes, there's a teeny-tiny DAC in that dongle and it's actually quite good.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm

https://www.audioreviews.org/apple-audio-adapter-review/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/ <-even these OCD loony toons like it

Following this thread I sensed some confusion over the current state of Apple output options and I hope this might clear up something for someone sometime somewhere. Regardless, I'm happy to see the OP found a solution that they enjoy :)
 
My disposable income improved so I’m seeking a dedicated amplifier behind my Sansui gear noted here in the title. I found an Adcom GFA-555 mark II (the second update that I assume came a year or two after the 1985 initial release) amp locally. Would this pair well with my 4-ohm AR9 speakers? I only use it in two-channel mode for music. It seems good at low impedance and would yield 325 wpc for my gear. I’ve been enjoying my gear without any amp separate but it’s time.
 
Reading your thread it seems that your 717 is still somewhat, if not all original.
In my opinion your running on borrowed time. Any extra cash you have, should be used for a recap/refurb/restoration on the 717 before age, Sansui glue, and possible black flags kill it.
 
DB-7 said:
Reading your thread it seems that your 717 is still somewhat, if not all original.
In my opinion your running on borrowed time. Any extra cash you have, should be used for a recap/refurb/restoration on the 717 before age, Sansui glue, and possible black flags kill it.
Click to expand...
Good points. I’ll go that direction first.
 
blhagstrom said:
FWIW. I’ve restored many of them. I’ve actually built one from a pile of parts after some psycho repair fool claimed it toast/parts and chopped it up. That one is thrilling someone in the UK.

$600 is about right for a complete and proper job.
Click to expand...

Leestereo said:
IMO, $600USD would be cheap considering that in a complete and proper job, ~160 parts are replaced/upgraded and that the parts alone are ~$150USD from Mouser.
Click to expand...

Done two already, and currently listening to the third one. $600 is cheap, and if you consider your labor, you might end up working for $10 an hour. Figure in extra stuff like taking apart switches to clean them, adding binding posts (not as easy as it looks), adding an IEC socker (ditto), and you could be in for many many hours. Sadly, nobody seems to take this into consideration. Look at what your average plumber, electrician, mechanic etc. charges per hour. Granted, they have business overheads to pay.
 
pete_mac said:
The 717 features no ”black flag“ capacitors.
Click to expand...
I didnt know if the 717 had them or not. That is why I wrote "possible" (apparently not possible lol)
Really doesn't change my opinion. Most of my Amps are about 6 to 8 years newer than a 717 and still suffer from corrosive glue, failing capacitors, resisters and other parts, from nothing but old age. So far I've had 4 of them refurbished/restored within the last year.
I Still think the OP's 717 is overdue.
Next thread will be asking if the adcom power amp had anything to do with why his 717 bit the dust. lol
 
DB-7 said:
I didnt know if the 717 had them or not. That is why I wrote "possible" (apparently not possible lol)
Really doesn't change my opinion. Most of my Amps are about 6 to 8 years newer than a 717 and still suffer from corrosive glue, failing capacitors, resisters and other parts, from nothing but old age. So far I've had 4 of them refurbished/restored within the last year.
I Still think the OP's 717 is overdue.
Next thread will be asking if the adcom power amp had anything to do with why his 717 bit the dust. lol
Click to expand...

Fully agreed on the other points you raised - any 717s out there in the wild that haven't been properly refurbed are living on borrowed time. I only sought to clarify the lack of black flags on this model.
 
@pete_mac I'm glad you posted that because I had no idea.
My last post was just to expand on my opinion to give @punchycool explainations of my opinion and why I posted it.
I was also reading between the lines of punchycool's post for the need of a power amp. I would think he's not just casual listening anymore and has been pushing the volume up. With 4 ohm speakers to boot.
Nothing wrong with adding more juice with a power amp, but maintain what you already have first.
You'll be amazed at how good a refurbed/restored Sansui will sound.
 
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