220V vs 120V - Any benefit?

[jstang]

..... Are you done performing your useless analysis of all the real work I have done....?

Regardless of anything you might want to portray of yourself.... In your heart you know you have added nothing to the discussion and provided nothing that was of real value....

In the end and this is the end for me on this topic.... People will read what you have offered here and they will judge you in the same manner as those who really know you.... and that is...

YOU ARE NEXT TO USELESS....

Have a nice day....

jk

 

[MudPuppy176]

..... Are you done performing your useless analysis of all the real work I have done....?

Regardless of anything you might want to portray of yourself.... In your heart you know you have added nothing to the discussion and provided nothing that was of real value....

In the end and this is the end for me on this topic.... People will read what you have offered here and they will judge you in the same manner as those who really know you.... and that is...

YOU ARE NEXT TO USELESS....

Have a nice day....

jk

Very nicely said. I certainly never expected you to admit being wrong, and you didn't disappoint. Ignorance is bliss which makes you one happy SOB. Faced with concrete factual statements and drawings, you wouldn't budge (as expected). You're right, the rest of the world is wrong.
Have a nice day....

 

[ByteWrangler]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the War Room.

I should know better than to step in the middle of a pissing contest, but sometimes I just do irrational things.

Drop/Supply = % drop

.5 / 240 = .2 % AC line sag for 240Vac 10 Gauge 20amp circuit

1.3 / 120 = 1.1 % AC line sag for 120Vac 10 Gauge 20amp circuit

Hmmmm. P=IE doesn't seem to hold true. Splain that to me, Lucy. I can't wait to see this math. Tell us Nostradamus how you achieved such a feat?

MudPuppy is usually spot on about things electrical, but I think either he's mistaken here, or he hasn't explained well enough for me to understand why the result bstang is seeing is wrong.

For instance, how does P = IE apply to the quote above?

He has the exact same physical branch circuit wires, so presumably the resistance of this wiring will be the same in both cases. In one case they're wired as a 120 V circuit (white tied to the neutral bus in the panel, black to a 20 A circuit breaker) and the other case as a 240V circuit (white tied to the second breaker of a CB pair). Is that right, bstang?

Theory says to expect one quarter the power loss delivering the same amount of power at twice the voltage. This is close to what we're seeing here. This is why power is distributed at high voltages.

Power Loss = I * Vdrop

120V supply:
PL = 5A * 1.3 V = 6.5 W (5 A is presumed from earlier test)

240V supply:
PL = 2.5A * .5V = 1.25 W (current is presumed to be half previous case since it's what would be expected, and E = IR voltage drop is approximately half, through constant R)

It's not a laboratory experiment, and the results aren't exact, but they are certainly in line with the expected values.

What am I missing?

BTW, 'stang: those voltage drops still seem WAY TOO HIGH even though they are much better than they were. 1.3V sag with a 5A load @ 120V (if that's correct) would be 5.2V with a full 20A load. While that's (barely) less than 5%, it should be much better because you're using oversize wiring (#10 on a 20A circuit). How long is the run from panel to outlet?

 

[wbain]

If you are serious about using this amp in your home, use the expensive hospital grade outlets for it. They are orange and cost about 20 bux. The usual 69 cent jobs are junk for your application. There is no point in going 220 so you can also run 10 ga. wire to a 20 amp breaker and use the aforementioned orange outlet.

 

[jstang]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the War Room.

I love that movie.....

Length 25 Ft x 2 for round trip..50Ft total, but the original circuit was longer and had junction boxs. Then add what ever V drop for the fuses. There may be other issues occurring due to phasing of the load, even a different test freq might change the result. I picked 30hz specifically cause I felt it would be challenging, think a square wave would be worse.....not sure... but that is the number. Or other factors such as total load on the service. Not really sure... Could even be my meter, but the results track in the correct direction.

There is no point in going 220 so you can also run 10 ga. wire to a 20 amp breaker and use the aforementioned orange outlet.

Raise your hand if you have done back to back testing of 120 & 220 with a big power hungry amp.... Strange only one hand has been raised..... If the amp ( & power transformer ) is smaller then I agree.


jk

 

[ByteWrangler]

Now, if you plan to leave it as a 20-A 240V circuit for the time being, and you haven't already done so, use a proper double-pole circuit breaker (double-wide with ganged handles, not just two singles), mark the white wire with black electrician's tape on both ends to indicate that it's hot (not neutral) and change the 120V receptacle out for one or more NEMA 6-20 (20A, 250V), or two or more NEMA 6-15 (15A, 250V) recepts. Get a new power cord and use a NEMA 6-15 plug (save the old cord so you can change back).

NMEA 6-20R

NMEA 6-15R

Images pinched from this useful Plug and Receptacle Configuration chart.

 

[jstang]

It's staying at 240, had the DP 20 amp breaker from the start, wiring with red/black hots.... But I have lost my One button on/off (amplifier outlet delay) via my power center... I need to make a control relay powered by the 120 amplifier outlet.

So the wall outlet will be a standard 240 outlet and the relay box will be in between.


Also one IMPORTANT THING I NEED TO CLEAN UP....


My amp can be configured for 100, 120, 220 as outlined in the manual.....but 240 is supported too just not documented in the manual.

WE REALLY HAVE two 120s that add up to 240....

So on the transformer I used a configuration of putting the full two 120 Vac windings in series.

The two 120Vac winding have a tap for 100Vac....

For 120...Normally the two 120 full windings are used for 120 in parallel.

For 100...Normally the two 120 windings input tapped at 100 are used for 100 in parallel.

For 220... Normally one of the 120 windings input tapped at 100 plus the second full 120 winding in series.

The undocumented config is both full 120 winding in series.... this provided 240Vac support....


IF YOU TRY THIS.... BE CAREFUL WITH THE TRANSFORMER CONFIGS....it can be tricky...triple check this. Look at the schematics to see if can even be done....I used an ohm meter to verify it.


TO MUDPUPPYS point of it really being 240 not 220. ( there I gave u one....)


Again through all the discussion, criticism, doubt & bickering.....thanks....this helped my system...


Johnk

 

[MudPuppy176]

For instance, how does P = IE apply to the quote above?

He has the exact same physical branch circuit wires, so presumably the resistance of this wiring will be the same in both cases. In one case they're wired as a 120 V circuit (white tied to the neutral bus in the panel, black to a 20 A circuit breaker) and the other case as a 240V circuit (white tied to the second breaker of a CB pair). Is that right, bstang?

Theory says to expect one quarter the power loss delivering the same amount of power at twice the voltage. This is close to what we're seeing here. This is why power is distributed at high voltages.

Power Loss = I * Vdrop

120V supply:
PL = 5A * 1.3 V = 6.5 W (5 A is presumed from earlier test)

240V supply:
PL = 2.5A * .5V = 1.25 W (current is presumed to be half previous case since it's what would be expected, and E = IR voltage drop is approximately half, through constant R)

It's not a laboratory experiment, and the results aren't exact, but they are certainly in line with the expected values.

What am I missing?

BTW, 'stang: those voltage drops still seem WAY TOO HIGH even though they are much better than they were. 1.3V sag with a 5A load @ 120V (if that's correct) would be 5.2V with a full 20A load. While that's (barely) less than 5%, it should be much better because you're using oversize wiring (#10 on a 20A circuit). How long is the run from panel to outlet?

Power was held constant, resistance is constant therefore current and voltage drop should double at 120V (2 wire configuration) vs. 240V. 1.3/.5=2.6, a 30% error. BTW, in order to get a 1.3V drop on 50' of 10AWG wire, you'd be over 20A draw at 120V, 7.75A at 240V for a .5V drop. 2400 watts @120V/ 1860W at 240V drawn to produce 100W/channel???? Something is most certainly wrong with the data. BTW, I did a little rounding, but used the same conductor resistance/foot to arrive at my numbers (1.29 ohms/1000'). A different value would obviously not change the ratio of 2:1.

 

[MudPuppy176]

If you are serious about using this amp in your home, use the expensive hospital grade outlets for it. They are orange and cost about 20 bux. The usual 69 cent jobs are junk for your application. There is no point in going 220 so you can also run 10 ga. wire to a 20 amp breaker and use the aforementioned orange outlet.

Hospital grade outlets are not orange nor any particular color, those are isolated ground outlets. Hospital grade have a green dot on their face generally (all I've installed) or are otherwise identified as hospital grade.

 

[jstang]

Besides the sound improvement at high volume levels of AC/DC Power .... You know the musical kind....Hells Bells....Back in Black.....


My meter lamps refuse to dim.... NO MATTER HOW MUCH MY WIFE YELLS AT ME IT"S TOO LOUD......


In the past there was a definite correlation between the Wife yelling, loud music and the UV meter lamps dimming....:scratch2:


The music sounds better, lamps no longer dim no matter hard I push the amp....but still the Wife.....

Well two out of three is damn good in my book......




jk

 

[MudPuppy176]

What works for you works for you, 'nuff said. Enjoy!!!!

 

[whoaru99]

Based partly on this thread, I decided to order a new toy... one of these Kill A Watt gizmos. Displays Volts, Watts, Amps, Hz, VA, kW/hr, etc.

Not so much that I'm concerned with voltage drop, but curious about actual power consumption of some of the things I leave plugged in all the time.

Should keep me entertained for a day, maybe two, I'd guess.

 

[MudPuppy176]

Based partly on this thread, I decided to order a new toy... one of these Kill A Watt gizmos. Displays Volts, Watts, Amps, Hz, VA, kW/hr, etc.

Not so much that I'm concerned with voltage drop, but curious about actual power consumption of some of the things I leave plugged in all the time.

Should keep me entertained for a day, maybe two, I'd guess.

If it shows 2400 watts consumed to produce 100W/channel output, I'd assume you'd be concerned. I'm sure you'll get more efficiency than that. Unless your amp also makes waffles.

 

[MudPuppy176]

My point is if you find the results you're looking for, you're going to accept them even if they're wrong. You've validated your incorrect theory. Exactly what you're after. You've proven yourself correct, exactly what you're after. Who wants to be wrong? Objective versus subjective. Classic. I was taught otherwise.

 

[whoaru99]

If it shows 2400 watts consumed to produce 100W/channel output, I'd assume you'd be concerned. I'm sure you'll get more efficiency than that. Unless your amp also makes waffles.

No, I'm not concerned with the amps. I don't leave them turned on all the time. Besides, I know there is a voltage drop problem if I fire up the big guns and let 'em rip, but it really doesn't concern me because I so rarely listen at those levels.

I'm more curious about the industral grade 1000VA UPS I have in the back room that's on 24/7, my home network gear that's on 24/7, the "vintage" workstation computer I use for a file server that's on 24/7, the computer I'm working on that's generally on 24/7, etc.

EDIT: If ANY amp drew 2400W to produce 200W of output, it needs serious repair. Even a pure Class A amp of that power range would only draw maybe 1/2 that.

 

[MudPuppy176]

EDIT: If ANY amp drew 2400W to produce 200W of output, it needs serious repair. Even a pure Class A amp of that power range would only draw maybe 1/2 that.

Look back in this thread at the measured voltage drops. I'm a lowly electrician who knows no better. I stand by my calculations. I believe my training tells me somethings amiss. Until I'm proven otherwise (with calculations) I believe I'm correct. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.

 

[whoaru99]

I have no doubts about your calculations. However, the calculations don't take into effect the possibility of less than perfect connections/terminations - which could be the "somethings amiss" part.

EDIT: Curiosity did me in...I checked a circuit using one of those "milk house" heaters that is rated at 1,500W power consumption. No load voltage was 119.8VAC, with load voltage was 117.0; both as measured with my trusty Fluke 87. That equals 2.3% for a fairly heavily loaded (~12.5A) circuit.

A Class AB amp putting out 200W, shouldn't be much more than 500-600W so it was about 1/2, or less, of my "dummy load".

 

[MudPuppy176]

I have no doubts about your calculations. However, the calculations don't take into effect the possibility of less than perfect connections/terminations - which could be the "somethings amiss" part.

Let's hope someone couldn't make such connections. Without calculating, the values could only be astronomical. Not feasible IMHO.

 

[jstang]

What a wuss.... I must have put a real hurt on your pride....

My amp is operating correctly.... Idle power of 130...+ 200 watts output and 60% efficiency... put it right in the 600 watt range for 100 WPC.... Class A/B are about 60%...

When are you going to provide some MASTER ELECTRICIAN EXPERTISE? Are you ever going to provide any tangible advice? Or just continue to provide FUD....

Come on lets see some FREE ELECTRICIAN EXPERTISE... Come collabrate with us.....

Oh wait a minute.... you're an electrician.... you are trying to drum up some business with FUD.......

Come on man, belly up to the table and provide some FREE ELECTRICIAN EXPERTISE....


Not that I need your FUD....woops I mean MASTER ELECTRICIAN advice....

There hasn't been anything but FUD from you....


COME ON SHARE SOME MASTER ELECTRICIAN EXPERTISE FOR FREE.....

Tell us specifically how to trouble shoot Voltage Drop, what Meters to use and where to look... Step by Step process would clear this up....

Cause you know, most people would love to avoid wasting money on you guys if not required....

jk

 

[MudPuppy176]

I have no doubts about your calculations. However, the calculations don't take into effect the possibility of less than perfect connections/terminations - which could be the "somethings amiss" part.

EDIT: Curiosity did me in...I checked a circuit using one of those "milk house" heaters that is rated at 1,500W power consumption. No load voltage was 119.8VAC, with load voltage was 117.0; both as measured with my trusty Fluke 87. That equals 2.3% for a fairly heavily loaded (~12.5A) circuit.

A Class AB amp putting out 200W, shouldn't be much more than 500-600W so it was about 1/2, or less, of my "dummy load".

Enough said. A Fluke 87 don't lie. Nor does my Greenlee DM-110. Properly used, of course. Thanks.