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220V vs 120V - Any benefit?

I have no doubts about your calculations. However, the calculations don't take into effect the possibility of less than perfect connections/terminations - which could be the "somethings amiss" part.

EDIT: Curiosity did me in...I checked a circuit using one of those "milk house" heaters that is rated at 1,500W power consumption. No load voltage was 119.8VAC, with load voltage was 117.0; both as measured with my trusty Fluke 87. That equals 2.3% for a fairly heavily loaded (~12.5A) circuit.

A Class AB amp putting out 200W, shouldn't be much more than 500-600W so it was about 1/2, or less, of my "dummy load".


Yup clearly there was something wrong with my first 15 amp circuit..... I have production grade fluke, but I was not using for the testing....I was use an older one.... Might have some error in the meter....

Did you measure the actual amperage of the heater?


jk
 
LOL, stop already, its gotten downright silly at your expense.


Bingo nothing free from you........Run for the hills, some one said the words "FREE ADVICE".....

More FUD and less advice..... I am asking you to document your advice and you will not....

Giving us the 1-800-Electrician number does not help us....

STAND UP LIKE A MAN AND BE COUNTED....


jk
 
Did you measure the actual amperage of the heater?
jk

No, I didn't measure the actual amperage. I also "tested" with a hair drier that's rated at 1,600W and got virtually the same results.

I'm guessing since both are essentially constant loads, the nameplate ratings aren't far off.

I will measure though when the Kill A Watt arrives. Hopefully it'll be in the next day or two...hate waiting for toys.
 
That "Kill a watt" thingy is pretty cool..... I did not see a price in my quick read of it...

How much is it?

jk


No, I didn't measure the actual amperage. I also "tested" with a hair drier that's rated at 1,600W and got virtually the same results.

I'm guessing since both are essentially constant loads, the nameplate ratings aren't far off.

I will measure though when the Kill A Watt arrives. Hopefully it'll be in the next day or two...hate waiting for toys.
 
About $36 for the fancy one that calculates and forecasts the cost of operation if you put in the kW/hr electrical cost.

About $20 for the basic version that measures the same stuff, but doesn't calculate the energy cost.

They also have a power strip with same stuff in it. Dunno the cost on that, but I think it's like $80 or $90.
 
36$ Nice..... I just saw the VA rating of 1875 so it is a little undersized for one of my applications... :)

But I might just spring for one of those.... Let us know how you like it...


Actual, come to think of it... I have seen power strips like that in data centers.... There are larger units for 240...


jk


About $36 for the fancy one that calculates and forecasts the cost of operation if you put in the kW/hr electrical cost.

About $20 for the basic version that measures the same stuff, but doesn't calculate the energy cost.
 
36$ Nice..... I just saw the VA rating of 1875 so it is a little undersized for one of my applications... :)
jk


Yeah, on paper.

You'll never see that kind of continuous draw in real use, unless you continue to play with test tones and dummy loads.

Be advised, amps can easily be destroyed by that kind of experimenting. Most of them don't like continuous full power output at much time duration.

As you know, most amps will be clipping on a music source when the continuous average output is somewhere between about 1/8 and 1/3 of the rated power spec. This is due to the average vs peak level in the music (crest factor).

Put another way, your 100wpc continuous power testing probably is on the high side of the max average current consumption you'd see playing music at very loud levels - probably in some amount of clipping.
 
I am actual interested in what may happen in the very short periods of time for power consumption, I think that device will allow surges to past .... and agree that Volume level would never on average stay very high....

But F's are inefficient at 87db....so they are played at high average power levels then most....

Still think that "Kill a watt" is a handy tool.... Just wonder how high peak power and what time frame it integrates the power over....how they do the averaging...

I need to RTFM.... :)


johnk
 
I think it integrates over as long as you leave it connected to the device. For intermittent and or variable loads, the longer you leave it connected, the more accurate the cost calculation becomes.
 
This will come to an end at some point.... But I no longer wanted to rely on the integration ( averaging ) of meters and I want to see the PEAK CURRENT flow.

So today I put a hand held O-scope across one of the 20 amp breakers that support the 220v circuit....

What I saw surprised me some....but made sense...

The voltage drop across the circuit breaker is a function of the current passing through it. The breaker is new and of a know resistance.


The wave form I saw was 60Hz but nothing close to a sine wave, think of sine wave with a huge spike at each peak and valley, heading + on the positive side and - on the negative side. At mid level volume MUSIC not the 30 hZ test signal .... there were hugh 80 to 90 mV peak to peak swings that would follow the music but only for very breif periods of time twice in the 60 hz cycle.

I measured the resistance of a new spare 20 amp breaker with my better fluke... approximately .01 ohm after zeroing the meter.

For a very brief period of time at middle level volumes the 240Vac line is providing 9 amps PEAK.

Waveform was a +/- Spike of very short duration time. Which I think correlates to the time to recharge the main filter caps SAG.... High current is only flowing during the time the CAP voltage is below the secondary voltage of the transformer... Less the Idle current.

So the output power TOTAL consumption is being JAMMED into a very short period of time on the 60 HZ cycle.


I am going to repeat this with the 30 hz 100WPC later tonight.

Point is that the load from recharging the caps is not being spread across the whole 60 HZ Vac.... But is be jammed into a 9amp spike in very short period of time. But the average current is much lower.

The more power drained form the Caps, the bigger the brief current spike on the Vac line.... The current spike is limited by the impedance of both sides of the power supply.

Also some of that spike of current goes straight out to the speakers via the output transistors during the short period of time it is occurring....


jk
 
Yep...weak flux capacitors and possibly faulty flubber taboot. A sad state of affairs. Mr. Limpett is certainly needed at this point. Goober's tech in Mount Pilot is worth the trip, Steve can fly you there from the "Junction" (PnP). Tell him Charley sent you. The password is swordfish. You'll be fine.
 
Master Electricians aren't trained to use an O-scope... are they now.....? This is way beyond your understanding....

Let me make it simple for you....instead of thinking K-watt / hours..... think of Watts / mSec......

Two docs that point to the technical reasons that high current spikes on the Vac can be helped. Improved wiring and higher primary voltage can help.


http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Design/dcpsu.htm


http://www.accuphase.com/historys/cate/ps-1200v_e.pdf


Yep...weak flux capacitors and possibly faulty flubber taboot. A sad state of affairs. Mr. Limpett is certainly needed at this point. Goober's tech in Mount Pilot is worth the trip, Steve can fly you there from the "Junction" (PnP). Tell him Charley sent you. The password is swordfish. You'll be fine.

Still useless FUD from him.....
 
Forget Rms For A Minute.......

RMS values are miss leading in this issue. The current is only flowing for very short period of time during the AC 60 HZ input. The time it is flowing is the on time of the Power Supply's Rectifier Diodes.... Which is the time that the secondary output of the transformer less the Rectifier voltage drop is above the MAIN FILTER CAPS RAIL VOLTAGE....

Using the math to calculation the PEAK CURRENT from the following URL.

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Design/dcpsu.htm


I peak = I dc x T(total ) / T(1)

I peak is the actual current peak of the amp on the AC supply side.

I dc = I rms


T(1) is the time length of the two current spikes found in the 60 Hz supply added together.

T( total ) is the total time of one Sine wave in the 60Hz which is 16.6 mSec.

I Ac supply was measuring 5.5Amps with 100WPC 30 hz test into 8 0hms using 120Vac.


Time T (1) was about 3.5 msecs


So for the 120v testing the PEAK current was

5Amps x 16.6 / 3.5 = 24 amps PEAK....

While the breaker can be sized smaller at 15amps and not trip. The Amp is actually drawing 24Amps when the rectifier diodes are RECHARGING THE MAIN FILTER CAPS. All voltage drops should be calculated at the 24amp level.... THE NUMBERS GET HUGE for the brief period of time the Rectifiers are actually charging the Main Caps.....


So for the 240v testing the PEAK current was

2.75Amps x 16.6 / 3.5 = 13 amps PEAK....

On my 240V circuit I am using a 20amp breaker...


Provide higher voltage to the transformer ( provided it can be configured for the higher voltage ) with less voltage drops due to current spikes and the MAIN FILTER CAPS WILL PROVIDE BETTER REGULATION UNDER HIGH LOAD....

This provides a higher average DC value on the supply rails, less AC ripple and BETTER SOUND......

YOU WILL NOT SEE THIS WITH A FLUKE TRUE RMS METER.... Only way to see this is with an oscilloscope.


Much thanks to DumbPuppy.... His obstinateness drove me to learn more about this and think it through more completely.... Now I know the reason for his ID...he likes being dragged through the Mud.....



johnk
 
While the breaker can be sized smaller at 15amps and not trip. The Amp is actually drawing 24Amps when the rectifier diodes are RECHARGING THE MAIN FILTER CAPS. All voltage drops should be calculated at the 24amp level.... THE NUMBERS GET HUGE for the brief period of time the Rectifiers are actually charging the Main Caps.....


A legend in your own mind. That amp far surpasses MC2KW's. Get a clue.
http://mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-mc2kw-2000-watt-reference-power-amplifier.asp
 
You simply don't understand the difference between PEAK and RMS measurement.....and when to apply each.

You need to study this....current waveform is two Spikes...not a sine wave.... I know this hard to visualize that Current is not following the source Voltage...but its not even close... For a Toaster oven the current wave is exactly like the Voltage wave while the heater is turned on....an AMPs current draw behaves totally different....

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Design/dcpsu.htm





While the breaker can be sized smaller at 15amps and not trip. The Amp is actually drawing 24Amps when the rectifier diodes are RECHARGING THE MAIN FILTER CAPS. All voltage drops should be calculated at the 24amp level.... THE NUMBERS GET HUGE for the brief period of time the Rectifiers are actually charging the Main Caps.....


A legend in your own mind. That amp far surpasses MC2KW's. Get a clue.
http://mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-mc2kw-2000-watt-reference-power-amplifier.asp
 
You simply don't understand the difference between PEAK and RMS measurement.....and when to apply each.

You need to study this....current waveform is two Spikes...not a sine wave.... I know this hard to visualize that Current is not following the source Voltage...but its not even close... For a Toaster oven the current wave is exactly like the Voltage wave while the heater is turned on....an AMPs current draw behaves totally different....

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Design/dcpsu.htm

You need to study what RMS is. The only way to accurately interpret non-sinusoidal waveforms.
 
Keep in mind that the AMPs AC source Load is not a pure resistive or even a simple impedance load... The Rectifier Diodes are Semiconductor devices that require the anode voltage ( secondary transformer Voltage ) to be .7Vs higher than the Cathode before it will turn on......Until they turn on the amp is disconnected from the Transformer.....


Well....RMS is method to approximate the DC equivalent of a sine wave of a given peak voltage....or the area under the curve. But when using it to calculate power consumption and voltage drops you should use it for a resistive or reactive load that is conducting for the full 360* of the signal... In our case it is the Sine Wave of the Power Company.

Meaning the load is presented to the voltage source for the entire 360*.... In the case of a power amp with a classic Transformer/Rectifier/Filter Cap power supply the Load is only being presented to the Voltage source for approximately 100* of the total 360* sine wave..... for the other 260* the rectifier diodes are not conducting current.... because the Anode voltage is lower than the Cathode.

For those 260* there is a no load condition....Zero Current for those 260* because the load is intentionally disconnected from the transformer. Therefore continuous RMS calculations do not apply..... RMS meters are considering those 260* as being as important as the 100* the Diodes are conducting .... Those 260* of off time are meaning less....and need to be ignored.....

For purposes of calculating voltage drop and current.... you are better off using peak values because the TOTAL OUTPUT POWER CONSUMPTION is jammed into the 100* of the +/- peaks of the Voltage source.... The current is much high and so are the voltage drops....

Remember, RMS Voltage is an approximation to DC assuming the load is connect for 360*..... You can not use RMS currents to calculate V-Drops for a current Signal that spend 260* at Zero amps because it is shut off by design ....

RMS miss calculates the Voltage Drop during the ON TIME....by averaging in the time being spend at zero diode current flow.


The only time we should consider for the Voltage Drop calculations is ~100* of the of 360*..... Not the time that Rectifier Diodes are Shut off.....

For the 260* of the 60 Hz Power Co Sine wave the AMP is running purely off the Main Filter caps.... For 100* it is SUCKING IN CURRENT LIKE MAD.....it is what is happening during those 100* that is significant to the calculations.

Standard RMS Meters are using the entire 360* for "integration" to resolve the RMS voltage..... Only way to get the exact current value during the Diode on time is with a Scope....or approximate backwards by assuming 100% the power is being consumed in the 100* not the 360*.

We simply don't care about the long period of time during the Sine wave that the Rectifier DIODES are not conducting...IT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM THE CALCULATIONS. Is there some way to tell a meter to ignore that 260* ? No.....that is why a scope is needed.


Vdc Rail ~ V(Peak) - 1/(4CF)

C is the Main Filters and F is 6 Hz....

Volts RMS is not used. Volts Peak are used to predict supply Rail Voltage no load. I Peak ( AC supply current peak) should be used to determine the affects of AC line voltage drop due to load. Which in turn causes power supply rail sag.

If you replaced the diodes and MAIN CAPs with a simple resister that was dissipating power for the Full 360* of the Sine Wave, then RMS calculations from a meter on the primary side would work....


Below is a pic of the Current Signal on the 240Vac supply for a 30hz 100WPC Test signal in to 8 Ohms. The Current Signal is far from being a Sine wave....It still is a 60hz waveform, but the CURRENT Spikes reach 5.5amps in both directions vs a measured 2.2 RMS amps. The power is being consumed in very high narrow spikes that correspond to the Peaks and valley of the AC Supply... The spikes are the main Rectifier Diodes turning on and starting to re-charge the Main Filter Caps....

Those spikes create more voltage drop then if using an estimated RMS current.... These spikes are concentrated right when they can adversely affect the Rail Voltage most by creating higher % voltage drops then you would expect with RMS calculations...

THIS ONLY GETS WORSE WITH 120V.... Point is....over size the AC Circuits for large power hungry amps.....the Voltage Drops should be calculated for those Current spikes not RMS values.

Yes the Amp is functioning correctly and the current Spikes are normal.

UPsf9eVES8IMkRLOvCfNhzwVm7r9LpxV0300.jpg



Think of it, this was only 100WPC.... this is 1/3 power for this amp in 8 ohms....and 1/6 the power into 4 ohms....

600WPC into 4 ohms would produce current spikes in the range of 30amps in a 240 Vac circuit..... But the RMS value would be in the range of 10amps.


johnk
 
36$ Nice..... I just saw the VA rating of 1875 so it is a little undersized for one of my applications... :)

But I might just spring for one of those.... Let us know how you like it...


Actual, come to think of it... I have seen power strips like that in data centers.... There are larger units for 240...


jk

Came in the mail today.

A quick check using the milk house heater dummy load showed virtually the same voltage readings as the Fluke 87. The wattage stabilized at 1427 watts vs the dataplate rating of 1500 watts.
 
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