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7c vs & 7t Listening testing. Which one Wins...

I like old gear to sound like old gear. I have modern gear that sounds really wonderful. Sometimes I want to hear what Grandpappy Audiophile Doctor/Dentist had back in the 1950's, etc. If I had an old Buick Skylark from 1962, the last thing I would want to do would be to pull the engine out of it and redesign the thing to make it drive better or faster or whatever. Turning it into a race car just wouldn't be my thing.

I have to say that I agree with this perspective completely. I love my vintage gear because it is vintage, it's a glimpse into the past. I appreciate it for what it is and love every second listening to it.

The endless quest for improvement may be a valid choice for others, but it's not for me.
 
I do that... Think it's wise.

jstang, PB Audio, anybody else.....

Do you recommend exercising the "selector" or "mode" switches periodicly or is it not necessary on the 7 and 7t? Same with the 4 levers in the middle?
 
I agree with that on some units... But honestly, a 7t is not the museum piece the 7c is... So it's far game for mods.


I have to say that I agree with this perspective completely. I love my vintage gear because it is vintage, it's a glimpse into the past. I appreciate it for what it is and love every second listening to it.

The endless quest for improvement may be a valid choice for others, but it's not for me.
 
jstang, PB Audio, anybody else.....

Do you recommend exercising the "selector" or "mode" switches periodicly or is it not necessary on the 7 and 7t? Same with the 4 levers in the middle?

Jstang is the EE and I would defer to his judgement; but, I would definitely 'exercise' all the controls periodically, but sparingly. Better still, if they are clean when you do this.:thmbsp:
Jay
 
I have to say that I agree with this perspective completely. I love my vintage gear because it is vintage, it's a glimpse into the past. I appreciate it for what it is and love every second listening to it.

The endless quest for improvement may be a valid choice for others, but it's not for me.

Chris, please consider...
listening to a Vintage piece that has been properly maintained, such that it very closely duplicates the sonic qualities when it was new is indeed a blast from the past.
***On the other hand, listening to a Vintage piece that still contains its original caps, etc, will likely NOT share those same sonic qualities as when new... so you're no longer experiencing a blast from the past...
Rather, you are experiencing the sound of dried caps, and you are very much in the present.:D
 
If McIntosh could have engineered that upper-midrange edginess out of their MC-275 flagship tube power amp, don't you think they would have?
Does anyone believe for a moment, that the big MAC designers didn't kick themselves because the Marantz Model 9 out-classed their BEST effort?
If they could have jumped into their time machine and sourced a modern capacitor to solve that nagging upper-midrange edginess, don't you think they would have?
Get a clue...
 
Chris, please consider...
listening to a Vintage piece that has been properly maintained, such that it very closely duplicates the sonic qualities when it was new is indeed a blast from the past.
***On the other hand, listening to a Vintage piece that still contains its original caps, etc, will likely NOT share those same sonic qualities as when new... so you're no longer experiencing a blast from the past...
Rather, you are experiencing the sound of dried caps, and you are very much in the present.:D

I agree, I am all about maintaining every unit in the spirit of the original design.

I do not find it necessary to modify any unit within an inch of life so it really bares no resemblance to its original design.
 
I agree, I am all about maintaining every unit in the spirit of the original design.

I do not find it necessary to modify any unit within an inch of life so it really bares no resemblance to its original design.

See... now I agree with that completely. I do have a reverence for the best designs from the past.
But, take the Dynaco ST-70 (THE Classic Tube power amp). It was also sold in kit form as the Dynakit ST-70. It was designed to be very much a classic design, with no frills, for the diy audio buff at that time.
If you have an interest in the Models 7/8B/9 you will enjoy the AK Tube Audio Forum. The Dynaco and it's various mods are a frequent source of discussion.
There is a whole cottage industry of kits and mods available today for the Dynaco amps and PAS preamp. It is a great learning platform for anyone interested in tube amp design.
I believe the total resistance to a mod or two is only natural for anyone who restores vintage equipment. It requires an understanding of circuit design beyond what one can learn in your typical Marantz service manual. And, once confronted with a hack 'fix' that you now have to unravel to be able to restore a piece of equipment to proper functionality...
Who needs that headache, right?
But, the requirement to actually 'know' the circuit, before considering a mod, seems like just a further evolution in the learning process.
If you know the Audio Research Corp. (ARC), one of few remaining tube amp and preamp mfg, except for a hand full of boutique mfg, you may know that they started out modifying those same Dynaco ST-70 amps and PAS Preamps.
Now the virtually constant evolution of their products involves a constant series of mods to the existing product line. The philosophy being one of continuing improvement.
I almost bought an ARC SP-3a1 preamp in the late 70s, but decided on the Mark Levinson ML-1 instead. Guess what, they were fond of modding their own equipment as well.
Now, I'm tempted by the ARC SP-6B, or the SP-11 or SP-14 or LS-15...
so many mods... and, generally, each new 'mod'el is better than the last.
There is always room for improvement.:D
 
Hey PB, I had a nice AR SP-6B and it is one of the pieces I really missed when I sold it. I was running it with a D76A. The 6B had an open window in the midrange at the time which was way better then anything else and built like a tank.
 
Now we are bringing gear within an inch of it life......?

Hehehehehe.... Come on, let's not get so dramatic. First, We have tree lovers, then seal lovers.... Now "T" lovers.....

Is the government going to start regulating stereo modifications....? I want my freedom to modify...the government can't stop me... I almost bought a basket case 7t to gut it and put tubes in it....

I agree, I am all about maintaining every unit in the spirit of the original design.

I do not find it necessary to modify any unit within an inch of life so it really bares no resemblance to its original design.
 
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Now we are bringing gear within an inch of it life......?

Hehehehehe.... Come on, let's not get so dramatic. First, We have tree lovers, then seal lovers.... Now "T" lovers.....

Is the government going to start regulating stereo modifications....? I want my freedom to modify...the government can't stop me...

Exactly... AND, that's precisely why the ARC preamps are so good.
I'll probably regret saying this here... but, I believe the ARC SP-6B will beat the pants off a Marantz 7C. Of course, it's not a fair contest when you consider that the SP-6B is probably 25 years newer, give or take. I forget when it was mfg, but Pat will know. The current models get very expensive, but the SP-11, SP-14 and LS-15, which are no longer the current new models, are likely starting to get tempting, pricewise... I'll bet.
But, there is a downside. As soon as the next 'NEW' model comes out, the value of last year's model drops like a rock.
One reason motorcycle fans like Harleys, I suspect. They hold their value.
My 2008 Honda CBR-1000RR will beat the pants off any Harley ever made; but, in a couple years, it probably won't be worth half what I paid for it.
And there is your reason to keep a Vintage Audio piece, 'box stock'.:D
 
Hey PB, I had a nice AR SP-6B and it is one of the pieces I really missed when I sold it. I was running it with a D76A. The 6B had an open window in the midrange at the time which was way better then anything else and built like a tank.

Hi Pat,

Nice set up, the SP-6B with a D76A... I know you miss them now...
How was dealing with the tubes on those models? I know finding the 'best' tube combinations can be a challenge on the Marantz amps and preamps.
Although, I'll bet some Marantz owners have never rolled their tubes.:D
 
The value is one issue...the ability to check the plugs in under 5 mins....without digging into a faring... is a plus to me.

Most HDs that have been correctly modified and "cared for" actually bring more resale value....but junk is junk like everything else.

A worked 110" stroker is a beast to ride.... Ah nothing like a hot rodded HD....

A "rat bike" is always worth less...

Just like stereo gear....

One reason motorcycle fans like Harleys, I suspect. They hold their value.
My 2008 Honda CBR-1000RR will beat the pants off any Harley ever made; but, in a couple years, it probably won't be worth half what I paid for it.
And there is your reason to keep a Vintage Audio piece, 'box stock'.:D
 
The value is one issue...the ability to check the plugs in under 5 mins....without digging into a faring... is a plus to me.

Most HDs that have been correctly modified and "cared for" actually bring more resale value....but junk is junk like everything else.

A worked 110" stroker is a beast to ride.... Ah nothing like a hot rodded HD....

A "rat bike" is always worth less...

Just like stereo gear....

...and isn't that why we use QUALITY PARTS in every refurb.
No cheapo caps allowed in this here neck o the woods!:D
 
Hi Pat,

Nice set up, the SP-6B with a D76A... I know you miss them now...
How was dealing with the tubes on those models? I know finding the 'best' tube combinations can be a challenge on the Marantz amps and preamps.
Although, I'll bet some Marantz owners have never rolled their tubes.:D

The SP-6B had Ram Labs tubes installed, the D76A I had was owned by Jon Dahlquist and was pretty hooked up by AR for him with upgraded films and caps, very sweet, and the best amp I have owned. The amp was a beast and during summer listening it seemed to heat up the whole room. As for the pre zero tube problems. The D76A did go back for some work and a fresh set of 6550's. My SP-6B was stamped 1980.
 
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The SP-6B had Ram Labs tubes installed, the D76A I had was owned by Jon Dahlquist and was pretty hooked up by AR for him with upgraded films and caps, very sweet, and the best amp I have owned. The amp was a beast and during summer listening it seemed to heat up the whole room. As for the pre zero tube problems. The D76A did go back for some work and a fresh set of 6550's. My SP-6B was stamped 1980.

All right... there is the reason to get that ARC LS-15... to help heat the livingroom on those long, cold winter nights.
...and, naturally to maintain an all transistor system to run in the summertime.... to help keep the air conditioning costs within reason.
Models 7T and 500 in the summer, and Dynaco ST-70 and ARC SL-15 in the winter,
at least until we build an 8B clone and my version of a Marantz 7 'Line Amp'. It will be a build from scratch, so naturally, all mods are fair game.
I am getting anxious to retire...:music:
 
jstang, PB Audio, anybody else.....

Do you recommend exercising the "selector" or "mode" switches periodicly or is it not necessary on the 7 and 7t? Same with the 4 levers in the middle?

Yes, any signal carrying switch should be periodically cleaned, de-oxited, and exercised. Like anything electrical, corrosion of contacts is the enemy. Same can be said for any signal connection from RCA jacks to speaker connections. Some will even go so far as to refresh solder connections, especially those that carry high voltage, or high current, or even micro voltages and currents, hell some even refresh all solder joints.

If McIntosh could have engineered that upper-midrange edginess out of their MC-275 flagship tube power amp, don't you think they would have?
Does anyone believe for a moment, that the big MAC designers didn't kick themselves because the Marantz Model 9 out-classed their BEST effort?
If they could have jumped into their time machine and sourced a modern capacitor to solve that nagging upper-midrange edginess, don't you think they would have?
Get a clue...

Well, consider that maybe the MC275 did sound pretty good - on the speakers available when they designed and built it. And maybe it was pretty good with the damn good tubes they had back in the 60's (Genalex, MOV, Mullards, GE and RCA) instead of everything that has come since. If more modern and perhaps more revealing speakers then came in the decades to follow, it was already after Mc and most other electronics makers had moved on, for better or worse, to transistor designs.

A better question is whether the MC275 anniversary editions made essentially fundamental changes to the character and voicing of the amp and what would they sound like on vintage or modern speakers with vintage or modern sources - assuming the output transformers and output tubes are similar, a difficult assumption. I'm sure as a manufacturer, most are proud of their designs. If someone out in DIY land writes and tells them their pieces don't sound good, but if you mod it so and so and such and such, it'll sound great, how do you think they will respond?? Especially if its a vintage piece they may or may not support anymore? And what of the long term stability or reliability of any mod. They would then have to carry the engineering and liability for anything that goes wrong.

As for mods which simplify the circuit or remove inputs and switching options, well that's great, at least for someone who has decided on only a few sources and doesn't use controls. But that limits flexibility, and for some manufacturers, limits the potential buyers. For greatest appeal, the major manufacturers of the day provided real and perceived flexibility and features which were in vogue in the day (dating back from the preamps of the 50's with multiple phono compensations in inputs) and that was the norm. So called "Purist" and straight wire with gain designs were few and most short lived in the market until "hi-end" designs became more familiar and audiophiles sought them out.

As for ARC equipment, some of it is undeniably good, interesting, and evolutionary. But if you look at the schematics of many ARC preamps and amps, they are also undeniably complex, sometimes to the point where it seems there's tons of extra components and stages. Along with the idea that many parts are run at very high voltage or current levels and space and heat are huge concerns, is it any wonder that some designs had poor reliability, many had to be serviced frequently, and some upgrades were there for reliability improvement as well as sonic improvement, not to mention that they cost a lot too - and I'm trying not to pick on just ARC, many many "Hi-end" makers helped to create the never ending "upgrade" path in seeking Audio Nirvana, paralleling the automakers and other industries.

Ever see some of the big ARC amps - those with 6-10 6550's in two rows or more, along with one or two 6550's as series pass power elements? They're mounted on PC board sockets within inches of the other passive or active elements like resistors and capacitors, all housed in many times only passively cooled cages. Even with Mil-spec packaging of 105 C rated parts, excessive radiant, ambient, and passive heating cycles will eventually damage circuit traces, solder joints, passive parts, etc. But many "audiophiles" have been led to believe that's all worth it in the pursuit of audio perfection - like the tempermental sports car or hot rod of our youth.

But that is where some genuine improvements are pioneered and then made more accessible to the masses, if there is a trickle down at all.
 
With the exception that McIntosh stuck with the tube market when most everyone but Dynaco and ARC had wandered off into the sand...
 
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