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7c vs & 7t Listening testing. Which one Wins...

Well, clearly an interest in tube audio gear is alive and well, if not a very profitible venture for today's manufacturers.
As this discussion demonstrates, there are several constituencies: among those, the 'purist', who sees the tube gear from the 60s as audio nirvana and wouldn't change a thing, even dried out electrolytics, in fear of altering the original concept,
and those who recognize that, as technology marches on, improvements, which may not have been possible in the 60s, are now available to 'cure' some of the sonic anomalies inherent in many, if not all, original tube designs.
Should some completely 'original' pieces be preserved, as in a museum... absolutely.
But does that mean, those of us, who believe this is all about the music, NOT just the hardware, should suffer with the sound of dried out caps or worse, just because the museum curator might cring at the thought of a non-original cap in his museum piece?
Don't get me wrong, the McIntosh MC275 was a very fine tube power amp, both then and now, but only if refurbed with QUALITY PARTS. And as good as it was, the Marantz 8B just sounded better. We're not talking Night and Day. Subtle differences. For the McIntosh owner who feels he'd like his MC275 to sound better, should he be discouraged from replacing a component or two, if that upper-midrange harshness can be made to go away?
It's true of all audio gear... modern QUALITY PARTS can frequently make a difference. The original designers never proposed that the components used to build their gear would last indefinitely, or that improved components would never become available in time.
In their day, they used the best available electronic components to create their audio treasures. Why should we do less when selecting appropriate components for a restoration. Further, for the non-museum pieces, if a circuit mod can improve the sonic quality and cure a known sonic anomaly... why not???
If a carefully modded Dynaco ST-70 can be made to more closely resemble the sonic qualities of the clearly superior Marantz Model 8B, isn't that a desirable goal?
In the end, any design improvement that allows the electronics to get out of the way of the music would seem to be desirable.
After all, it is about the music, right?
So, shouldn't fidelity to the original music be the absolute design goal for any piece of audio equipment,
rather than an attempt to mimic the sound of a 50 year old tube or dried out cap from years gone by?
 
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Went to do a back to back test of the 7c & the stock 7t and proofed my tube amp some how last night... So that will be on hold for a brief time till I get it sorted... :(

You play, you pay... Looks to be simple fix...

Jk
 
Don't forget Conrad-Johnson, I owned the PV-5 Preamp and it was a beaut!

Yes, Pat, Conrad-Johnson is an excellent manufacturer. Among the best.
How would you compair the PV-5 to either the Marantz 7 or ARC preamps?
I'm mostly a fan of their power amps. I've never seen the PV-5 preamp.
As mentioned above, the complexity of ARC preamps is one of the issues that has put me off in the past. And worse, Mark Levinson, since it has been sold, is no longer supporting their products... sound familiar... a la Marantz?
Another arguement for elegent, less complex and cluttered designs. That's where Marantz just got it right, especially in their earlier offerings.:thmbsp:
Too bad the prices have gone parabolic.:no:
 
Went to do a back to back test of the 7c & the stock 7t and proofed my tube amp some how last night... So that will be on hold for a brief time till I get it sorted... :(

You play, you pay... Looks to be simple fix...

Jk

Did you get a schematic with your 8B clone??? Odd that it ran flawlessly with the 7C, but had an issue when run with the 7T.
Curious, once you isolate the problem... whether there was any 7C vs 7T issue involved. Doubtful, but...
... not to stick to closely to the spirit of the original thread.
Far be it from me to stoop to that level...:D
 
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I am thinking its was the Walsh 4. They are marked as 8 ohms... And really are 4 depending on switch settings.

The amp is very close to the stocker for the important parts.

Jk
 
Yes, Pat, Conrad-Johnson is an excellent manufacturer. Among the best.
How would you compair the PV-5 to either the Marantz 7 or ARC preamps?
I'm mostly a fan of their power amps. I've never seen the PV-5 preamp.
As mentioned above, the complexity of ARC preamps is one of the issues that has put me off in the past. And worse, Mark Levinson, since it has been sold, is no longer supporting their products... sound familiar... a la Marantz?
Another arguement for elegent, less complex and cluttered designs. That's where Marantz just got it right, especially in their earlier offerings.:thmbsp:
Too bad the prices have gone parabolic.:no:

The PV-5 was all about demensionality and sound stage, and was the champion at it, but to me had a rather dark midrange. The SP-6B on the other hand had that open window in the midrange that was magical. By the time AR got to the SP-6E things started moving in the direction of being tonally very accurate and analytical. I am all about 90% of the sound for 10% of the money and really loved my PAS 3 with Noble volume control and Telefunken smooth plates among other upgrades it comes oh so close. As for the Marantz 7 at the time I owned it I had just sold my Sota Sapphire with Souther arm, so only got a listen with my AR with Rega arm. However it was a joy to listen to and to me the highest complement of all, was that you would forget about critical listening and just enjoy the music, which is what it is all about.
 
The PV-5 was all about demensionality and sound stage, and was the champion at it, but to me had a rather dark midrange. The SP-6B on the other hand had that open window in the midrange that was magical. By the time AR got to the SP-6E things started moving in the direction of being tonally very accurate and analytical. I am all about 90% of the sound for 10% of the money and really loved my PAS 3 with Noble volume control and Telefunken smooth plates among other upgrades it comes oh so close. As for the Marantz 7 at the time I owned it I had just sold my Sota Sapphire with Souther arm, so only got a listen with my AR with Rega arm. However it was a joy to listen to and to me the highest complement of all, was that you would forget about critical listening and just enjoy the music, which is what it is all about.

Yes..."the highest complement of all, was that you would forget about critical listening and just enjoy the music, which is what it is all about."
YES... BINGO!!!:yes:

It's the music to which we are seeking High Fidelity,
NOT the sound of some 50 year old tube in a circuit full of dried out caps.
To the extent the audio equipment has its own signature, it has failed.:no:
 
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See... now I agree with that completely. I do have a reverence for the best designs from the past.
But, take the Dynaco ST-70 (THE Classic Tube power amp). It was also sold in kit form as the Dynakit ST-70. It was designed to be very much a classic design, with no frills, for the diy audio buff at that time.
If you have an interest in the Models 7/8B/9 you will enjoy the AK Tube Audio Forum. The Dynaco and it's various mods are a frequent source of discussion.
There is a whole cottage industry of kits and mods available today for the Dynaco amps and PAS preamp. It is a great learning platform for anyone interested in tube amp design.
I believe the total resistance to a mod or two is only natural for anyone who restores vintage equipment. It requires an understanding of circuit design beyond what one can learn in your typical Marantz service manual. And, once confronted with a hack 'fix' that you now have to unravel to be able to restore a piece of equipment to proper functionality...
Who needs that headache, right?
But, the requirement to actually 'know' the circuit, before considering a mod, seems like just a further evolution in the learning process.
If you know the Audio Research Corp. (ARC), one of few remaining tube amp and preamp mfg, except for a hand full of boutique mfg, you may know that they started out modifying those same Dynaco ST-70 amps and PAS Preamps.
Now the virtually constant evolution of their products involves a constant series of mods to the existing product line. The philosophy being one of continuing improvement.
I almost bought an ARC SP-3a1 preamp in the late 70s, but decided on the Mark Levinson ML-1 instead. Guess what, they were fond of modding their own equipment as well.
Now, I'm tempted by the ARC SP-6B, or the SP-11 or SP-14 or LS-15...
so many mods... and, generally, each new 'mod'el is better than the last.
There is always room for improvement.:D

The first of three epiphanys I ever had was when my buddy brought over his new Audio Research Sp3a-1. I was running a Marantz 7c and was absolutely stunned when I heard the ARC. I ran right out an bought one. Today, I run the phono stage of a 6B "hot rodded" out of the tape out jacks into an Audio Research LS2. When you hot rod a preamp out of the tape out jacks, you are by-passing the volume and the balance controls and I believe any tone controls as well. You then use the volume control of the line stage. The 6B has the glorious mid-range of the sp 3a and the lS2 line stage is better than the 3a or the 6bs line stage which gives a better low and high end than the 3a or 6b alone. You kind of getting the best of both worlds for a reasonable price. If I could, I would get an ARC SP11 or a the phono stage of a 6b or an sp8 and couple that with the sp 15 since I cannot afford the new ARC reference stuff of today. And, to hear the Marantz 7 phono stage at it's best, you can hot rod it's phono stage too thereby truely bypassing all of it's controls. When I ran a Decca cartridge, I hot rodded one of my 7cs straight into my power amp or amps and used an external Noble stepped volume control with input and output jacks and nothing else. I worked great. I can't remember what power amps I was using at the time but if they had their own level controls, I wouldn't even need the volume control. My Krohn-Hite amps have selectible input sensitivity of .5 volt or 4.0 volts to drive to max level.
 
The first of three epiphanys I ever had was when my buddy brought over his new Audio Research Sp3a-1. I was running a Marantz 7c and was absolutely stunned when I heard the ARC. I ran right out an bought one. Today, I run the phono stage of a 6B "hot rodded" out of the tape out jacks into an Audio Research LS2. When you hot rod a preamp out of the tape out jacks, you are by-passing the volume and the balance controls and I believe any tone controls as well. You then use the volume control of the line stage. The 6B has the glorious mid-range of the sp 3a and the lS2 line stage is better than the 3a or the 6bs line stage which gives a better low and high end than the 3a or 6b alone. You kind of getting the best of both worlds for a reasonable price. If I could, I would get an ARC SP11 or a the phono stage of a 6b or an sp8 and couple that with the sp 15 since I cannot afford the new ARC reference stuff of today. And, to hear the Marantz 7 phono stage at it's best, you can hot rod it's phono stage too thereby truely bypassing all of it's controls. When I ran a Decca cartridge, I hot rodded one of my 7cs straight into my power amp or amps and used an external Noble stepped volume control with input and output jacks and nothing else. I worked great. I can't remember what power amps I was using at the time but if they had their own level controls, I wouldn't even need the volume control. My Krohn-Hite amps have selectible input sensitivity of .5 volt or 4.0 volts to drive to max level.

Yah, among others, the ARC SP-11 and LS-15 are very tempting. Just not sure I want to spend the money before building a clone Marantz 7 'Line Stage' pre. Time is the issue... I barely have time to listen these days.
I'll probably buy something... just want to be sure I'll be happy with it, as opposed to just paying up for a genuine Marantz 7. Too much $$$.:no:
 
This is just an FYI that I found on the net, not my opinion but is interesting reading.


Marantz also made, of course, some very famous tube amplifiers (the 8B and 9) and a tube preamplifier (the 7C). They are not desirable because their typical purchasing costs are much too high in relationship to their actual sonic performance. (Of course, if a "real deal" becomes available, that is a totally different story.)

In purely sonic terms, both amplifiers are excellent, especially after routine modifications. The Model 9 monos are still competitive, on the appropriate loudspeakers, with all but the finest amplifiers made today. The 7C preamplifier is a different story. Unless it is seriously modified, meaning "totally gutted", it can not equal the performance of the better (now used) preamplifiers from the 1980's, let alone of today. I actually heard a fully rebuilt 7C on a number of occasions, which was owned by an audiophile friend of mine. The work was done by the original designer, the now late Sid Smith, and it was an excellent performer.
 
This is just an FYI that I found on the net, not my opinion but is interesting reading.


Marantz also made, of course, some very famous tube amplifiers (the 8B and 9) and a tube preamplifier (the 7C). They are not desirable because their typical purchasing costs are much too high in relationship to their actual sonic performance. (Of course, if a "real deal" becomes available, that is a totally different story.)

In purely sonic terms, both amplifiers are excellent, especially after routine modifications. The Model 9 monos are still competitive, on the appropriate loudspeakers, with all but the finest amplifiers made today. The 7C preamplifier is a different story. Unless it is seriously modified, meaning "totally gutted", it can not equal the performance of the better (now used) preamplifiers from the 1980's, let alone of today. I actually heard a fully rebuilt 7C on a number of occasions, which was owned by an audiophile friend of mine. The work was done by the original designer, the now late Sid Smith, and it was an excellent performer.

Seems noone here is willing to complete any mods on the Tube Model 7/7C preamp, even those not suitable for the museum and in daily use. Hard to know just how good the 7C could be if appropriate updates were a collective effort. Seems Sid wasn't afraid to comlete an update or two. What must he have been thinking???
Then, that's what I like about my not ready for the museum, personal 7T. It excels precisely because good engineering was used to maximize circuit efficiency. This did not even require any real circuit alterations, just a creatively thoughtful restoration, including careful parts selection.
No, it is not completely stock, but nearly so; and the several small changes and attention to detail has made all the difference.:music:
 
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The very late 7c started to have the application of newer parts that sounded slightly different. Same is true with the 7t over its production run.

And then you have Sid jumping back in and modifying. It's a mistake to think the state of the art does not progress....and the use of tantalums in 7t is a prime example. They simple would never find their way on a totl preamp today.

There a few part unit 7c on the fleebay lately... One was dented up pretty bad and the asking price was still up there....


Jk
 
The very late 7c started to have the application of newer parts that sounded slightly different. Same is true with the 7t over its production run.

And then you have Sid jumping back in and modifying. It's a mistake to think the state of the art does not progress....and the use of tantalums in 7t is a prime example. They simple would never find their way on a totl preamp today.

There a few part unit 7c on the fleebay lately... One was dented up pretty bad and the asking price was still up there....


Jk

What is the lowest going price range you have seen for a fixer up 7c that you have seen?
 
Not sure the asking prices seem to be the deal stopper.... :smoke:
 
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Not sure the asking prices seem to be the deal stopper.... :smoke:

Yah, there seems to be enough buyers to absorb the very limited supply of clean Marantz 7/7C Preamps that go on the market.
Those standing in line to buy, though, are collectors, not willing to compromise on a beater.
But, then, that gives the rest of us a chance. Any 'reasonably' priced 7C will almost certainly require a complete restoration.:yes:
 
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Got a chance to do some A/B-ing of a Stock very very late stock 7T and my modified very very early 7T....

I used the same source...and used the Headphones directly into the front panel jack of the 7Ts... The 7T can drive head phones without an amp.

The head phones were my old and trusty AKGs....

The Stock 7Ts was checked out with an ESR tester for the caps, voltages at all test points and distortion levels. DiOxed too. It checked out correctly....

Guess which one won.... The modified one is so smooth, precise and NO EARLY SS harshness.... the stocker is nice, but not at the same level.

Just brings me back to how close the Modified 7T is to the 7C.... Different, but very close in many ways.

jk
 
Got a chance to do some A/B-ing of a Stock very very late stock 7T and my modified very very early 7T....

I used the same source...and used the Headphones directly into the front panel jack of the 7Ts... The 7T can drive head phones without an amp.

The head phones were my old and trusty AKGs....

The Stock 7Ts was checked out with an ESR tester for the caps, voltages at all test points and distortion levels. DiOxed too. It checked out correctly....

Guess which one won.... The modified one is so smooth, precise and NO EARLY SS harshness.... the stocker is nice, but not at the same level.

Just brings me back to how close the Modified 7T is to the 7C.... Different, but very close in many ways.

jk

Nice comparison, cool that you took the time to do it. I know many are against any mods on the 7C and wanting to keep it stock. I am wondering about a modded out 7T vs a modded 7C?
 
Nice comparison, cool that you took the time to do it. I know many are against any mods on the 7C and wanting to keep it stock. I am wondering about a modded out 7T vs a modded 7C?

There is no doubt that a correctly performing Model 7, assuming you have a worthy amp to pair it with, as well as a great music source, will seduce any music lover with its stellar midrange. That's a given.
But if you are truely looking for accuracy, and across the full frequency spectrum, with a wonderful midrange to boot, I'll take my creatively restored 7T hands down. When you factor in the price, IMHO, there's no contest.
...others may like to pour a little syrup on it...:D
 
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